Should We Ignore or Discredit “Disinformation” in the 9/11 Movement?

[cottonzway]

Should We Ignore or Discredit “Disinformation” in the 9/11 Movement?

I think one of the most important topics amount the 9/11 movement is how exactly to deal with information that is deemed as extremely wild theories or what many believe to be pure disinformation. I will keep the names of those whom I consider to be doing such things out of the topic because what I really would like to find out the views of how people would like to deal with them first rather then just list names. Hence the POLL for this thread.

There are two different ways to go here. One would be to ignore them and not give them any mention to keep others from even knowing what they are saying. The other would be to expose them and separate ourselves from these people in a public manner.

At one point I did think that not giving them “credit” and making it like they didn’t exist was the right way. I hate that people either are too “educated” for their own good by HAVING to find some answer or are disinfo agents of some kind. People like that make my skin crawl! However….

I happen to think at this point people of the nature NEED to be exposed. My reasoning is pretty simple. I think anyone who has put the time in to look into this issue knows that the bigger issues are outside of a science study. There are issues with 9/11 that can’t be debated really. You can’t debate NORARD standing down, there is no debate about put options on the airlines, there is no debate about the “money man” meeting with high government officials that day, and I can go on and on. So I think what the propaganda machine will be looking for is people they can “group” anyone who questions this very imperative topic into a lump sum. I can see how FOX and the likes will put these people on air just to make everyone look bad. That is what people who hide things do, avoid the real questions and find a way to dirty the waters. I personally don’t want to be grouped with “them” because I don’t believe in my own opinions. I think it is a real concern to ignore these people because WHEN they are on FOX doing a disinfo speech (regardless if they are “agents” or just extremely delusional people) it is not going to help when the guy you have been telling that something stinks with the official 9/11 story says “So YOU GUYS think ______ caused 9/11?” and then totally looks away from real info because you are now “crazy” in his eyes because the media grouped all of us.

I strongly think it’s time we call them out and distance ourselves in a public way as far as we can from these types of people. That’s my opinion though and I wanted to get a feeling of what others feel is the best way to go about dealing with this topic. I would like to see what others feel the best way to deal with this is.

Thanks.

[PhilosophyGenius]

This is a hard one to answer. But I'm going to say ignore. The reason I picked that is because by trying to discredit wild theories, your debating it. And when you do that people are gonna go, 'see, look at what these conspiracy theorists are talking about on there websites, these guys are nuts'. And it's gonna be associated with everyone.

So it's best to ignore it.

[cottonzway]

This is a hard one to answer. But I'm going to say ignore. The reason I picked that is because by trying to discredit wild theories, your debating it. And when you do that people are gonna go, 'see, look at what these conspiracy theorists are talking about on there websites, these guys are nuts'. And it's gonna be associated with everyone.

So it's best to ignore it.

I would ask the same $64,000 question to everyone who thinks we should ignore them? Will you regret that decision when FOX has a Judy Wood or someone like that to discredit the work of all the hard working people who clearly see the fraud of 9/11? My concern is more about MAINSTEAM people and people like you and I. I think if you are on a forum like this understanding 9/11 in terms of it being a fraud of some kind is understood. The opinions vary but the general idea of the whole thing being a lie is understood. My concern is not among people who look at this data but the ignorant, sleeping folks who don't have any idea about anything. They are going to (SOON) drag one of those "nuts" on a major show and allow them to "share their theroy" as much as they would like.

I understand anyone's feelings about not want to even acknowledge these goons but if we ignore them it will be hard to distance ourselves from them once the media machine gets them on a show and makes all look like kooks to the average American who is sleeping. That is a MAJOR concern of mine. I just don't want to regret something that I could see happening in the near future knowing I could speak up about it.

Please, more replies.

Thanks.

[AuGmENTor]

I pretty much agree with you, cotton. But how, once you have discredited someone, do you distance yourself from them? You can be a self claimed truther. If one of them gets onto major media, there is no way to distance them. People see them holding forth on their beliefs, and they are automatically lumped in with us. Thats why these people are in such a pole position to hurt the movement. I see no winning answer to this. However, being a self-claimed dumbass, I just know someone will have a good answer. I'm still waiting to hear from a few of our regulars on this.

[cottonzway]

I pretty much agree with you, cotton. But how, once you have discredited someone, do you distance yourself from them? You can be a self claimed truther. If one of them gets onto major media, there is no way to distance them. People see them holding forth on their beliefs, and they are automatically lumped in with us. Thats why these people are in such a pole position to hurt the movement. I see no winning answer to this. However, being a self-claimed dumbass, I just know someone will have a good answer. I'm still waiting to hear from a few of our regulars on this.

You (we, us) distance ourselves AS FAR AWAY as we all can from people like this! What I really would like is the "media" (the few we have) that covers this lies of 9/11 to come out strongly against the opinions of these viruses to the movement. Guys like Michael Wolsey, Dan Abrhamson, and Alex Jones. I know in my heart we are going to see the "space beam people" on FOX at sometime, and then what? If we don't come out and call a spade a spade WE will be grouped with these people among the mainstream, like it or not. I don't like it so I want to expose them, call them on their lies or total nonsense science and distance myself as far away as I can from people like that. On record. That way when they do try to sell BS "theories" to the mainstream I am on record calling them frauds just like the average joe who will do the same.

[BASE701]

I think there should be a set of ideas agreed upon among the majority of the truth movement. Anything outside those parameters should be discussed as theory only.

This movement needs to become more cohesive IMO.

[thumper]

they all need a good thumping

[Gold9472]

How about, discredit, denounce, and move on?

[PhilosophyGenius]

After reading all the posts I think it all depends on the circumstances. Not just a yes or no answer.

[cottonzway]

After reading all the posts I think it all depends on the circumstances. Not just a yes or no answer.

In general I think the the circumstances are risking letting a chance of the guilty to use the far out theories as a tool to make the movement seem fringe. I do think it is best to do it and move on. That was a good point. I think the need to speak up in public, move away from them as people to be taken seriously, and go on record saying WE clearly do not agree with their opinions. That's all.

[Swmorgan77]

In speaking with media, highly public forums or to 9/11 truth newbs, I think ignore is the best approach. Any effort to bring them up is an attempt to associate, and divert from the good information you might otherwise present

However it imporant that we systematically refute them, and make these refutations public like the paper which examines the "no planes" thesis located at www.journalof911studies.com (http://www.journalof911studies.com)

Overall, we should not draw attention to these theories, but make the information refuting them available for those who need it.

[MrDark71]

These conspiracy artisans are only going to quagmire any efforts at the truth. I just don't understand these people. All of their intentions are seemingly similar to those who seek the truth yet they feel compelled to just "make shit up" when they don't even have to. After watching video doc's ad nauseum on the subject I had to stop and focus. I felt the need to seperate from my urge to find the truth and even question what the fuck I was even doing. It reminded me of the early 90's reinsurgence of JFK investigation seekers when the overwhelming amount of "theories" ended up sounded like a bunch of B-movie plots...going so far as to even inadvertantly derailing another with contradiction.

It's a show. It always has been. The more people involved the more convoluded the analysis becomes and so on. Disinformation WILL BE the first story to hit the mainstream press about any truther theory. It has to. It will play on our emotions and thoughts and stir the soup further from "the truth". Think about it.....JFK was killed by the CIA...no wait...the mafia....no wait...the military...no wait Castro. You almost forget about Lee Harvey Oswald.

The same things gonna happen with 9/11. The only way to discredit the "official" story is to simply ask questions? Fabricating answers like "pods on the bottoms of the planes" proves nothing to anyone. Yeah..I saw the videos...do I think it's possible they were military planes with armed weapons?...sure. Do I want to try and convince people that is the truth from some crappy video in the age of photoshop? I don't think so.

As a "truth" movement we can only gain credibility by denouncing loudly any information that CAN"T BE PROVED (such as the official story). Alex Jones and his kind need to be stopped. A unified "quest for truth" by definition HAS NO ANSWERS! Thusly those who seem to think they do are not one of us and should be labeled and discredited.

[AuGmENTor]

On this you and I are in total agreement. Don't hypothesize SHIT. There is MORE THAN ENOUGH to fuck these guys without guessing about anything! pointless infighting. I go to 911 blogger sometimes as a guest, and the shit I see there is so detrimental to the whole mvement. Not the whole site mind you, but just all of these ASSHOLES on BOTH sides of the movement.

[Christophera]

Should We Ignore or Discredit “Disinformation” in the 9/11 Movement?I happen to think at this point people of the nature NEED to be exposed. My reasoning is pretty simple. I think anyone who has put the time in to look into this issue knows that the bigger issues are outside of a science study. There are issues with 9/11 that can’t be debated really. You can’t debate NORARD standing down, there is no debate about put options on the airlines, there is no debate about the “money man” meeting with high government officials that day, and I can go on and on.

All of those issues require a lawful and accountable government to do anything with. If you know the WTC was a demo, you also know there is no point in discussing those issues, or you SHOULD know because we do ont have a lawful and accountable government. Part of dumbed down America are the people that are consumed with sensation and just don't think about this point. Disinfo depends partially on this.

Now, .............. consider an entire new aspect of disinformation. It works by plugging up boards with useless information, just like you've mentioned above. It is made to look important because a number of people are discussin it and it has a sensational aspect. If people don't think about my point above, the useless information covers or obscures the useful information.

I consider useful information to be information that we, the people can use ourselves without having to rely on authority which is not present. By use I mean, understand and relate to as it is intended or presented which brings us together in our thinking, united.


So I think what the propaganda machine will be looking for is people they can “group” anyone who questions this very imperative topic into a lump sum. I can see how FOX and the likes will put these people on air just to make everyone look bad. That is what people who hide things do, avoid the real questions and find a way to dirty the waters.

Above there seems to be a mix of what I point out, "muddy the waters" and another aspect which is marginalization of the movement by sharing outrageous nonsense that causes the viewing public to assume and atttude about all 9-11 researchers/activists as a group. Below cottonzway describes this aspect.


I personally don’t want to be grouped with “them” because I don’t believe in my own opinions. I think it is a real concern to ignore these people because WHEN they are on FOX doing a disinfo speech (regardless if they are “agents” or just extremely delusional people) it is not going to help when the guy you have been telling that something stinks with the official 9/11 story says “So YOU GUYS think ______ caused 9/11?” and then totally looks away from real info because you are now “crazy” in his eyes because the media grouped all of us.

I strongly think it’s time we call them out and distance ourselves in a public way as far as we can from these types of people. That’s my opinion though and I wanted to get a feeling of what others feel is the best way to go about dealing with this topic. I would like to see what others feel the best way to deal with this is.

Thanks.

Excellent topic. I applaude.

There is a real problem with the movement. Most of the people in it seem to be computer people rather than a diverse group which have skills or experience that might help in analysis and confirmation of evidence which makes it useful evidence after a fairly small number of people discuss it reasonably and focus on its aspects.

Relating to this, there are divisions in the American public that are unhealthy. I for one lament the fact that the large 9-11 organizations do not strive to centralize the people in the movement that are knowledgable of construction or engineering.

I appears as though the debunkers have many, many people that are knowledgable of engineering. I personally have a good deal of expereince and find that when I ask pointed logical question, they do not answer because te answer will disprove their position.

I agree. Expose and define disinformation. Help people to understand it with accurate facts that come from as raw a source as possible.

[AuGmENTor]

Expose and define disinformation. Help people to understand it with accurate facts that come from as raw a source as possible.

And then STOP! Don't go to their level like I see happen on blogger all the time. Reply to ONLY the issues, and then nothing personal beyond that. Discredit, and THEN ignore.

[Chana3812]

Reply to ONLY the issues, and then nothing personal beyond that.

I agree 100%.

I'm on the "ignore" list.

It's important to respect the rules of the house too ... i.e. in Jon Gold's house - no BS about computer generated images of planes, etc. That works for me :) Go to web fairy if you want to discuss more crazy stuff.

[AuGmENTor]

I agree 100%.

I'm on the "ignore" list.

It's important to respect the rules of the house too ... i.e. in Jon Gold's house - no BS about computer generated images of planes, etc. That works for me :) Go to web fairy if you want to discuss more crazy stuff.My refrence was more for the peple who venture out into the other forums (what other forums, hehe) Of course, EVERYONE behaves in Jons house...

[thumper]

LOL, remember AJ's round table discussion with Peter Lance?

[Christophera]

These conspiracy artisans are only going to quagmire any efforts at the truth. I just don't understand these people. All of their intentions are seemingly similar to those who seek the truth yet they feel compelled to just "make shit up" when they don't even have to. After watching video doc's ad nauseum on the subject I had to stop and focus. I felt the need to seperate from my urge to find the truth and even question what the fuck I was even doing. It reminded me of the early 90's reinsurgence of JFK investigation seekers when the overwhelming amount of "theories" ended up sounded like a bunch of B-movie plots...going so far as to even inadvertantly derailing another with contradiction.

If I speculate, it is about "how come there is so much disinformation".


It's a show. It always has been. The more people involved the more convoluded the analysis becomes and so on. Disinformation WILL BE the first story to hit the mainstream press about any truther theory. It has to. It will play on our emotions and thoughts and stir the soup further from "the truth". Think about it.....JFK was killed by the CIA...no wait...the mafia....no wait...the military...no wait Castro. You almost forget about Lee Harvey Oswald.

True, the disinfo is always the first story to hit the mainstream. It is almost like someone came up with the goofy story then programmed some mind controlled mkultra victim spew about, THEN got a nearby buddy at a local network to "scoop" the story. Over and over now. Oh, .. and yea, ....... don't forget to obsess about the grassy knoll.


The same things gonna happen with 9/11. The only way to discredit the "official" story is to simply ask questions? Fabricating answers like "pods on the bottoms of the planes" proves nothing to anyone. Yeah..I saw the videos...do I think it's possible they were military planes with armed weapons?...sure. Do I want to try and convince people that is the truth from some crappy video in the age of photoshop? I don't think so.

How about 1965, and a sodium pentothol programming session. Words of the programmer.

You are going to notice a bulge on the bottom of the plane. Then you will know it is a missile pod. We will make sure you have friends that know what you know. You will feel excited and see the bulge better and better, then a flash as the missle hits. You can expose the evil government together. You will be hereo's."

We only know that 150,000 Americans were influenced in some way by MKULTRA without their knowledge. We do not know how many more were influenced.



As a "truth" movement we can only gain credibility by denouncing loudly any information that CAN"T BE PROVED (such as the official story). Alex Jones and his kind need to be stopped. A unified "quest for truth" by definition HAS NO ANSWERS! Thusly those who seem to think they do are not one of us and should be labeled and discredited.

No one has any idea WHY MKULTRA was instituted.

A 5 year old male influenced in 1965 would be 55 today and in an age group that would be economically dominant as well as having many contacts in society.

[MrDark71]

No one has any idea WHY MKULTRA was instituted.

pardon my French but wtf is MKULTRA?

[AuGmENTor]

My refrence was more for the peple who venture out into the other forums (what other forums, hehe) Of course, EVERYONE behaves in Jons house...No, I don't. Wanna tell me more?

[AuGmENTor]

No one has any idea WHY MKULTRA was instituted.

pardon my French but wtf is MKULTRA?The extent of my knowlege is that it was some sort of a mind control program. But go ahead and google it. Or be lazy like me and just wait for someone to tell you in here.

[MrDark71]

You know....a nauseating thought just struck me about Alex Jones and the like....knowlingly "adding" disinformation to others hard work just to gain some spotlight seems way to much like "making a profit off of 9/11" hmmmmmmm.

[AuGmENTor]

So you're thinking that Alex Jones isn't what he seems?

[werther]

Alex Jones certainly 'exagerates' to point of fabrication.

[AuGmENTor]

Alex Jones certainly 'exagerates' to point of fabrication.Gimme an example. I got FRIED on this site one time for suggesting that he didn't shit gold coins.

[Christophera]

No one has any idea WHY MKULTRA was instituted.

pardon my French but wtf is MKULTRA?

Your French is fine.

General description, scope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

Fringe

http://peyote.com/jonstef/mkultra.htm

List of actual documents

http://michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm

Focus

http://www.mkultra.info/mkultra_hypnosis_experiments.htm


The fact is, we do not know everything about the mind. Fox news will tell you otherwise.

[werther]

No problem augie....
http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12456&page=1&pp=10

[MrDark71]

So you're thinking that Alex Jones isn't what he seems?

Well...in one of his videos he is extensively analyizing a clip of what he claims are both towers before they fell and this plume of white smoke at the base suggesting pre-collapse explosion. When in fact it's clearly obvious (even with his shitty video) you are looking at two sides of ONE tower post collapse of the other,clearly evident by the fact the damage on each side was about the same floor...not a 20 floor difference as would be the case if it were both towers. Thusly...his pre collapse plume is actually post collapse pyro flow/smoke from the other tower. Why does he have to MAKE SHIT UP? You know he knew what he was doing. I find it hard to believe no one in the "Alex" camp noticed this HUGE error before and after the release. They can't be that dumb and if thats the case it provides even further creedence to the idea that he's full of shit. His whole agenda seems to be to cause such furer in the movement while lying to it's face. Someone soooo seemingly nice and open-minded, certainly seems to create a heck of a lot of "truths" based on the smell of his own farts. I'd like to strap his ass on the bottom of a plane fly that fucker into a mountain... the pod.

[Christophera]

I find it hard to believe no one in the "Alex" camp noticed this HUGE error before and after the release.

Yes, how convienent. Co enabling. "Free for all" of unacountable nonsense.


Interpretations of smoke are one thing, the movement generally cannot conduct rational dialog on structural members of the towers. evidence of images during demolition.

So yea, ..................... they keep us busy with smoke and mirrors. Both sides against the middle inside invisible, internet land. Yippee, where's the emoticons?

Ever notice how it works where they can only speak to thousands (x100?) and you and I can only find a message board?

When it gets down to the wire like this, the greater meaning of free speech is definitely in the listening, if it is going to have its needed meaning.

[Christophera]

Alex Jones certainly 'exagerates' to point of fabrication.

Jones is in the 'expose business, always has been. He upholds an outrageous and outspoken position. A hit and miss type puzzle of fact and nonsense, or just fact presented with an agenda. The image of quintessential criticality and rabid herald by the paranoic type A personality.

In all it seems like puppetry on a stage. The enablement to larger media exposure is critical to creating the "stage".

They only speak and do not have to listen. The unreachable, unaccountable authority without a coherent explanation, only presenting disjointed speculation, on .......... whatever.

[MrDark71]

Well...in one of his videos he is extensively analyizing a clip of what he claims are both towers before they fell and this plume of white smoke at the base suggesting pre-collapse explosion. When in fact it's clearly obvious (even with his shitty video) you are looking at two sides of ONE tower post collapse of the other,clearly evident by the fact the damage on each side was about the same floor...not a 20 floor difference as would be the case if it were both towers. Thusly...his pre collapse plume is actually post collapse pyro flow/smoke from the other tower. Why does he have to MAKE SHIT UP? You know he knew what he was doing. I find it hard to believe no one in the "Alex" camp noticed this HUGE error before and after the release. They can't be that dumb and if thats the case it provides even further creedence to the idea that he's full of shit. His whole agenda seems to be to cause such furer in the movement while lying to it's face. Someone soooo seemingly nice and open-minded, certainly seems to create a heck of a lot of "truths" based on the smell of his own farts. I'd like to strap his ass on the bottom of a plane fly that fucker into a mountain... the pod.

I must correct myself.....I was thinking of that Van Kliest tool. Alex Jones, although well researched and not claiming he "knows what happeneed" seems too " Tony Little" to hold any real creedence. He's condescending and child like (granted.....that's about the intelligence level of the people) and it makes the monement seem a little wacky.

[thumper]

alex jones and his doom and gloom forecast gets tiresome after a while. i've started listening to The Edge, it's pretty good stuff.

www.theedgeam.com (http://www.theedgeam.com)