when evangelizing, should we give them the whole enchalada or measure our words?

[thumper]

i get a bit annoyed when 'whistle blowers' take the pathetic stance that 'something is suspcious' whenever it comes to the AIDs issue, flouride, or 9/11, and never more than that.

these people aren't brave. they're only doing the patriotic thing, because as AJ would say, right now it costs them nothing and others have paved the way.

giving people evidence for 9/11 inside job and then refusing to give a motive for fear of the 'conspiracy label' makes you as good as worthless.

i tell people about the illuminati right off the bat. once they accept that, everything fits into that frame and things make more sense.

discuss

[thumper]

thizzump

[Neimad9]

illuminati? You think thats true :S?

[thumper]

yup

[Neimad9]

Its a bit over the top do you not think? Surely that makes it harder to convince people..

[thumper]

NO YOU'RE OUTTA LINE!!

[Neimad9]

Sorry, Didnt mean to offend

[Gold9472]

Relax thumper.

[Gold9472]

The "Illuminati" is bs, and actually doesn't belong in the 9/11 Truther Forum.

[PhilosophyGenius]

I'd say measure your words and explain shit slowly. Like if you wanna teach someone algebra they gotta know basic math first or they won't understand shit.

[PhilosophyGenius]

The "Illuminati" is bs, and actually doesn't belong in the 9/11 Truther Forum.

But the Alex Jones story about the Rockefeller family member telling the filmaker about 9/11 and future planes. That's "Illuminati" is it not?

[thumper]

The "Illuminati" is bs, and actually doesn't belong in the 9/11 Truther Forum.the illuminati is bigger than 9/11.

if the 'neo-cons' really pulled off 9/11, why didn't they plant WMD's?

[Neimad9]

The illuminati really is quite extreame though. There is so little reason and evidence for it other than its a cool story. Attaching 9/11 to it reduces your story of 9/11 since the illuminari, even to most 9/11 truthers, is seen as false.

[AuGmENTor]

The illuminati really is quite extreame though. There is so little reason and evidence for it other than its a cool story. Attaching 9/11 to it reduces your story of 9/11 since the illuminari, even to most 9/11 truthers, is seen as false.On this we agree one hundred percent. I do believe there is SOME sort of organized takeover going on, but it could be the elks for all I know. I don't saturate my 911 arguments with it, as I feel it detracts from credibility. But to each his/ her own. We have some die hard illuminuses in here...

[thumper]

gatekeepers!!

[AuGmENTor]

see?

[thumper]

here's the problem with the 'official' 9/11 truther line.

truther: the NEO CONS did 9/11 to further their agenda for global domination!!

skeptic: but Bush is stupid. And besides, why not plant WMD's as well?

truther: ...

it's quite obvious that 9/11 was a master operation, and that the current actions of Bush betray this opening gambit. the only thing that explains it all is the luminatty

[AuGmENTor]

here's the problem with the 'official' 9/11 truther line.

truther: the NEO CONS did 9/11 to further their agenda for global domination!!

skeptic: but Bush is stupid. And besides, why not plant WMD's as well?

truther: ...

it's quite obvious that 9/11 was a master operation, and that the current actions of Bush betray this opening gambit. the only thing that explains it all is the luminattyVery good questions. I only speak about that which I KNOW to be false.. there is plenty I DON'T know.

[PhilosophyGenius]

I think the biggest problem with the Illuminati is the word "Illuminati". Saying "Illuminati" gives the sense that it's something huge and something mystical. But if you say 'global elite' and that guy like Bush are second tier guys brought in to do the work, well then that's more of a legitimate converstation right there.

As for why this admin could pull of 9/11 but not plant WMD's; my guess is that they really thought they were there even though they built a bs case to sell to the American people, or, they knew there was only so much they could get away with (maybe both). I mean they can't stage everything.

[Neimad9]

I think the biggest problem with the Illuminati is the word "Illuminati". Saying "Illuminati" gives the sense that it's something huge and something mystical. But if you say 'global elite' and that guy like Bush are second tier guys brought in to do the work, well then that's more of a legitimate converstation right there.

As for why this admin could pull of 9/11 but not plant WMD's; my guess is that they really thought they were there even though they built a bs case to sell to the American people, or, they knew there was only so much they could get away with (maybe both). I mean they can't stage everything.

Although planting WMD is surely a much easier step than operating 9/11 and keeping it quiet?

Either way I do not find that proof of the Illuminati, all you are saying is that theres a bit of this 9/11 truth that doesnt make sense/we dont know yet so lets explain it with another thoery. There is no evidence of a plot by the Illuminati so using it to support the alternative 9/11 version of events makes you look like you are are trying to hard to make all the puzzle pieces fit and and are coming up with paranoid conspiracy thoerys to do so.

Sorry, But it does weaking 9/11 truth if you bring something like the Illuminati into it.

[werther]

I agree with Neimad9's post. Though I tend to believe in some form of 'shadow government' I do not think that stringing this into a discussion will be beneficial. If anything it detracts and strays the audience from the main arguement. Honestly, again I do believe that a shadow government exists but for some reason everytime I see Illuminati posted on a 9-11 related board my eyes roll.

[AuGmENTor]

Well, I guess they can discuss it any old way they want to in here, or out there for that matter. I guess this was just a review of how WE go about it. I don't imagine that anyone going on about the illuminati has convinced alot of people that 911 was an inside job.

[thumper]

I think the biggest problem with the Illuminati is the word "Illuminati". Saying "Illuminati" gives the sense that it's something huge and something mystical. But if you say 'global elite' and that guy like Bush are second tier guys brought in to do the work, well then that's more of a legitimate converstation right there.we might as well stop using the word conspiracy... because it harks back to 'conspiracy theory'. let's stop being pussies and call a spade a spade. i've become desensitized to the word in any case.
As for why this admin could pull of 9/11 but not plant WMD's; my guess is that they really thought they were there even though they built a bs case to sell to the American people, or, they knew there was only so much they could get away with (maybe both). I mean they can't stage everything.how about this explanation.

the TRUE, overarching agenda is creating world government, and we all know that world war is what is needed to precipitate that. Moreover, the US government has been hijacked and will be taken down from within, and it has been decided that they will be one of the major instigators for this coming war. Just like how the CIA has set up the Wahabbi sect of militant Islam, i have no doubt the NWO has planted the NEO-CONS for their own purpose as well.

will explain more later, off to class....

[Neimad9]

we might as well stop using the word conspiracy... because it harks back to 'conspiracy theory'. let's stop being pussies and call a spade a spade. i've become desensitized to the word in any case.

I try to avoid it as well, although techincally it is a conspiracy, even the official story is a conspiracy as well

[thumper]

I try to avoid it as well, although techincally it is a conspiracy, even the official story is a conspiracy as wellyou're buying into their political correctness. go you

[thumper]

we have to remember that history is cyclical, mostly because it is controlled by the illuminati.

if they taught students REAL history, we'd know how unoriginal they are.

Not only is 9/11 EXACTLY like the Reichstag, so is the INTENTIONAL destruction of the American economy similar to what Germany went through, while at the same building up the arms industry.

this is neccessary for when the fecal matter hits the fan and the US becomes like a wounded tiger, where the only jobs left are supporting the war machine. this is how you'll get the engine for global imperialism that Brzinski wanted.

but in the last act, America is destroyed just like nazi germany.

and out of the ashes the new world government arises.

[thumper]

The illuminati really is quite extreame though. There is so little reason and evidence for it other than its a cool story. Attaching 9/11 to it reduces your story of 9/11 since the illuminari, even to most 9/11 truthers, is seen as false.there's actually lots of evidence. please do your own research rather than listening to the dismissive talking heads.

[Neimad9]

you're buying into their political correctness. go you

Not political correctness. If it was the terrorists then the terrorists commited a conspiracy, if it was the government then it was the government commiting a conspiracy. Its simly the defination of the word. Because of the negitive feeling attached to it i avoid using it.

[AuGmENTor]

Not political correctness. If it was the terrorists then the terrorists commited a conspiracy, if it was the government then it was the government commiting a conspiracy. Its simly the defination of the word. Because of the negitive feeling attached to it i avoid using it.You avoid using it for what exactly? It's not like you're out there trying to convince people 911 was an inside job. I don't mean to be contrite. But by your own admission you state that you are only in this to satisfy your own questions. That is fine. But alot of the people who come through here really want to knw what happened, and what all the hoopla is about. The numbers of people who do not accept what we have been told are growing every day.
It does seem hard to believe that our own government would be capable of the cold blooded murder of 3000 people. Doesn't make it any less possible, when you consider Waco texas (there are some really good documentaries about that) as well as several other events. Have you researched anything other than these two threads? Seen Terrorstorm yet? D you know the circumstances surrounding the first bombing of the WTC yet? There is sooo much to know before you form any opinions about this. This is LIFE we are talking about here. I didn't want this to be the truth. But you can't unsee it.

[Neimad9]

I dont use it so I dont offend anybody by using a term which is usually used to dismiss thoerys.

[thumper]

Not political correctness. If it was the terrorists then the terrorists commited a conspiracy, if it was the government then it was the government commiting a conspiracy. Its simly the defination of the word. Because of the negitive feeling attached to it i avoid using it.conspiracy means a secret agreement. i think it applies here.

[PhilosophyGenius]

-Hey Neimad9, check out any one of these documentaries:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=alex+jones


Although planting WMD is surely a much easier step than operating 9/11 and keeping it quiet?


-Of cousre 9/11 is waaayyyy harder to accopmlish than planting WMDs. But, 9/11 allowed the Iraq war to happen, not the other way around. So basically 9/11 was a must while WMDs were not needed, using fear and making a bs case was enough to sell the war.

And who says 9/11 was kept quite? There are former govnt officials who say 9/11 was an inside job, all of whom are republicans so you can't say that they're partisan. (Stanley Hilton, Dr Robet Bowman, and other I can't seem to think of)


. Though I tend to believe in some form of 'shadow government'

-Yes there is a "shadow government". But that terms means that in the event that key government officals are whiped out in say, a nuclear attack, the shadow governemtn would then take over. If you mean that there are people behind the scenes pulling the strings on our puppet govnt, then that's the "Illuminati" or global elite.


. Moreover, the US government has been hijacked and will be taken down from within,

I don't see why anybody would want to bring down the US governement. But you can't deny that people want to create a NWO; all around the world many important people have been quoted as saying they want a one world governemt.

[werther]

-Yes there is a "shadow government". But that terms means that in the event that key government officals are whiped out in say, a nuclear attack, the shadow governemtn would then take over. If you mean that there are people behind the scenes pulling the strings on our puppet govnt, then that's the "Illuminati" or global elite.

For some reason, which I have yet to realize, you have felt it necessary to restate the obvious. I am not arguing that the illuminati does not exist but rather that to interlace talk of the illuminati with truthing will not persuade those not yet convinced.

[thumper]

-Hey Neimad9, check out any one of these documentaries:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=alex+jones



-Of cousre 9/11 is waaayyyy harder to accopmlish than planting WMDs. But, 9/11 allowed the Iraq war to happen, not the other way around. So basically 9/11 was a must while WMDs were not needed, using fear and making a bs case was enough to sell the war.how could they NOT possibly think beyond step two? a theory is only good if it answer all the questions. if it doesn't, it has to be revised, or a new one must take its place.

I don't see why anybody would want to bring down the US governement. But you can't deny that people want to create a NWO; all around the world many important people have been quoted as saying they want a one world governemt.
the US is the last semi-free nation. they need to fold it into world socialism to fit the NWO agenda.

[PhilosophyGenius]

For some reason, which I have yet to realize, you have felt it necessary to restate the obvious. I am not arguing that the illuminati does not exist but rather that to interlace talk of the illuminati with truthing will not persuade those not yet convinced.

I know. I was just clearing up the term "shadow government".


how could they NOT possibly think beyond step two? a theory is only good if it answer all the questions. if it doesn't, it has to be revised, or a new one must take its place.


I'm not saying they didn't think "beyond step two". Cleary they did, they sold the war to the American people and make Saddam look like a real threat, so they did something right.

[thumper]

I'm not saying they didn't think "beyond step two". Cleary they did, they sold the war to the American people and make Saddam look like a real threat, so they did something right.actually step two would be the raison d’être, aka the WMD's.

that's like spending billions on a marketing campaign to sell the new iphone, but not actually having one. brilliant.

[thumper]

For some reason, which I have yet to realize, you have felt it necessary to restate the obvious. I am not arguing that the illuminati does not exist but rather that to interlace talk of the illuminati with truthing will not persuade those not yet convinced.it does.

it explains everything.

[Neimad9]

it does.

it explains everything.

Well, if you are controlling a story then you would have to explain everything. Every single alternative theory with events such as 9/11 will have a perfect story to fit it otherwise it wont work.

Its if the story makes sense and has proof that it begins to work. 9/11 does have some of this, but illuminati doesnt and kind of sounds quite far-fetched to be true. Hence why using it may harm your chances of convicing people.

[AuGmENTor]

Its if the story makes sense and has proof that it begins to work. 9/11 does have some of this, but illuminati doesnt and kind of sounds quite far-fetched to be true. Hence why using it may harm your chances of convicing people. But how much do you really KNOW about the illuminati? I'm playing devils advocate here, as I don't really care WHO it was that pulled this off, as long as the truth comes out and the evildoers are given what they deserve. But, if you know next to nothing about them, then how can you dismiss them out of hand? I would think the way to go would be to gather intelligence as to why it couldn't possibly be them, and then present that as an argument. Thumper has obviously done some research, and come up with a theory. You can't just say it doesn't sound right. You have to back up why with factual data. I go with what I KNOW to be true, and as I haven't researched to much into the illuminati, I don't argue the point. Nor am I now. What I am doing is asking how YOU can, without havng any information one way or another.

[Neimad9]

But how much do you really KNOW about the illuminati? I'm playing devils advocate here, as I don't really care WHO it was that pulled this off, as long as the truth comes out and the evildoers are given what they deserve. But, if you know next to nothing about them, then how can you dismiss them out of hand? I would think the way to go would be to gather intelligence as to why it couldn't possibly be them, and then present that as an argument. Thumper has obviously done some research, and come up with a theory. You can't just say it doesn't sound right. You have to back up why with factual data. I go with what I KNOW to be true, and as I haven't researched to much into the i, I don't argue the point. Nor am I now. What I am doing is asking how YOU can, without havng any information one way or another.
The illuminati is the idea that their is a group of people who are secretly controlling world events in order to create a New World Order. As part of this a lot of people will die and the world will be run by one, single government (a dictatorship).

That’s the basic idea.

The problem is with 'researching' it, is when to separate fact from fiction. There are true illuminati, the Bavarian illuminati, did exist around 1770/1780 (not to sure). There were a 'secret' group and technically illegal, but around that time there was a massive period of enlightenment around the world. So many intellectuals and even politicians joined. It was considered a intellectual society.

They were similar to the free masons but required no belief in god (heres where its starts to become fodder for the current NWO/ illuminati storys) this meant that the membership did not believe in god which helps fuel the idea of a NWO without god/religion. However the group disbanded after only a few years .

The current Storys, and they are storys, came after writers continually used the illuminti. They have said that existing secret clubs such as Skull and Bones at Yale are part of it, they also said that the eye over the unfinished pyramid in your seal is a symbol of the illuminti (no regard to the point that why would a secret powerful company do that!). They even claim your founding fathers were corrupted by the illuminti! So effectively America is just a tool of the illuminti used to bring this New World Order.

They are writers trying to sell books, they looked around the world and took existing history, symbols, and people and assigned them to the ‘illuminti’. Of course it makes perfect sense, because they have cherry-picked the best of current events and written them after the fact. They constructed the story after they already know the outcome. So they adapt the story to give the appearance that event XXX was because of the illuminti.

[AuGmENTor]

Really, I thought they origionally were incepted as a hidden culture of intelluctuals to hide their "herecy*" from the catholic church. I further thought they had infiltrated the freemasons, of which several of our founding fathers were known to be members. At which time they used the freemasons as a medium by which to propagate. Anyone truly secret would WANT to convince people they had disbanded. There you have the extent of my knowlege on them. Thumper could give you more I'm sure about them. I don't know one way or another if they exist anymore, or what their sphere of influence is in todays society. Thank you for posting what you know about them.
One question: Have you seen Alex Jones document: Hidden secrets of Bohemian Grove? If so, what are your thoughts?

[AuGmENTor]

no regard to the point that why would a secret powerful company do that!).

Or a member high enough in the government???? Tell me damien, what statue adorns the top of our capital building?

[Neimad9]

Really, I thought they origionally were incepted as a hidden culture of intelluctuals to hide their "herecy*" from the catholic church. I further thought they had infiltrated the freemasons, of which several of our founding fathers were known to be members. At which time they used the freemasons as a medium by which to propagate.

. There you have the extent of my knowlege on them. Thumper could give you more I'm sure about them. I don't know one way or another if they exist anymore, or what their sphere of influence is in todays society. Thank you for posting what you know about them.
One question: Have you seen Alex Jones document: Hidden secrets of Bohemian Grove? If so, what are your thoughts?

No, They did happen to consist of athists because, unlike the masons, they required no belif in a higher power. But the core intention of the group was not to do with the catholic church. They had some freemasons, but it is only rumored to have been 'infiltrated' as it were and therefor corrupted them and in turn the founding fathers.

But, this highlights the dangers of research. Since what you have posted is mostly the layer of theorys and story that has been applied over the fact. Its small but important to note. The corruption of the freemansons is pure rumor which is inserted because some freemansons were members. Then after that the founding fathers were freemansons so they make the link! So you are taking a theory which is built on yet another theory.


Anyone truly secret would WANT to convince people they had disbanded

Yes, Maybe. But again, this is simply a view. There own internal poltics and eventually a goverment order brought them down.

If you start using theorys to explain away unexplained events, then it reduces the likelyhood. But then if you build on top of that, and then on top of that and then on top of that it becomes simply a story with very little roots in fact.

[Neimad9]

Or a member high enough in the government???? Tell me damien, what statue adorns the top of our capital building?

If you were a secret sect, why label everything with a logo? I could claim that Apple Computers Logo is a sign of them if I wanted too! Whos to prove me wrong? You cant!

9/11 you have so much research and real life incidents to prevent anyone from spinning a completely rubbish story. This does not have any of that. Its just a theory, based a theory, based on a thoerys, adpated to implicate this indivdual, then a thoery extended from that....and so on

[AuGmENTor]

You didn't answer my question....

[AuGmENTor]

The corruption of the freemansons is pure rumor which is inserted because some freemansons were members But, if they were only around for a few year, how could any masons have been members?.

[Neimad9]

You didn't answer my question....

The building? I must confess I do not know. I am not an American however.

[Neimad9]

But, if they were only around for a few year, how could any masons have been members?.

Dont get your point? I do not think there is a figure for how many of its members were also masons if thats what your asking. But it never got that big.

[AuGmENTor]

OK bear with me on the spelling. The staue on top of our capital building is "Persephone" goddes of the underworld... Now wh do you suppose THAT would be up there?

[Neimad9]

OK bear with me on the spelling. The staue on top of our capital building is "Persephone" goddes of the underworld... Now wh do you suppose THAT would be up there?

I am not sure, But I doubt it would be anything to do with a secret order controlling events. I mean, really, if you were them then surely you would not put a big massive symbol of evil on top of the main capital building.

This is what I mean about looking at one fact, and then assigning a motive/story to it. The fact that statue is there has nothing to do with a NWO

[AuGmENTor]

I am not sure, But I doubt it would be anything to do with a secret order controlling events. I mean, really, if you were them then surely you would not put a big massive symbol of evil on top of the main capital building.

This is what I mean about looking at one fact, and then assigning a motive/story to it. The fact that statue is there has nothing to do with a NWOIt's when you combine the SUM of these facts that a pattern starts to emerge.

[Neimad9]

Ok, I still think the Illuminti is quite absurd. The fact they would put symbols everywhere makes no sense but like i said before the beginnings of this are so small let they have been built up so much (the symbols was started by someone making a book).

This is kind of a long, off-topic issue on which I doubt anyone would change their mind. So properly best we live it. I do recommend looking more into them though because it really is groundless (although I guess its always depending on your source)