Florida Teen Has Abortion Blocked By Judge

[beltman713]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm)

Florida girl has abortion blocked
By Jeremy Cooke
BBC News, New York

Young mums pushing prams

A pregnant 13-year-old girl in Florida has been told she cannot have an abortion because she lacks the maturity to make such a decision.

A state court granted an injunction which prevents the girl from terminating her pregnancy.

She is three months pregnant and had planned to have an abortion on Tuesday of this week.

The American Civil Liberties Union says it will launch an urgent appeal against the ruling.

'Too young to choose'

Florida's department of children and families intervened and took the matter to court, arguing the teenager, who is under the care of the state, is too young and immature to make an informed medical decision. Judge Ronald Alvarez in Palm Beach accepted that argument and has granted a temporary injunction and psychological evaluation, which effectively blocks her from terminating the pregnancy.

It is a case which, once again, plays into the heated and divisive debate about abortion in America.

The judge's ruling comes in spite of Florida state law which specifically does not require a minor to seek parental consent before an abortion.

The American Civil Liberties Union 's executive director in Florida, Howard Simon, said forcing a 13-year-old to carry on an unwanted pregnancy to term, against her wishes, is not only illegal and unconstitutional, it is cruel.

[Gold9472]

What about parental consent?

[pcteaser]

A pregnant 13-year-old girl in Florida has been told she cannot have an abortion because she lacks the maturity to make such a decision.




But mature enough to be a mother? Not to mention just the delivery itself.

[Gold9472]

But mature enough to be a mother? Not to mention just the delivery itself.

Excellent point...

[laurabears]

Yes not mature enough to abort the child but mature enough to have sex and get pregnant and then deliver the baby! STUPID FLORIDA COURTS!

[Simply_sexy]

I've actually been keeping up on this case simply because I am so ProChoice. The courts looked at her previous record which included running away 5 times. That should not have anything to do with it.
There is no parents, just the State of Fl. However, I'm not sure if they're looking at the child's best interests or simply trying to fulfill their personal goals.

[MissVA15]

Just because they are stalling to make it so then she won't be able to have the abortion when originally planned, the appeal might be able to go through soon... which i am actually against (pro life here) but they might not expect her to keep the baby, but give it up for adoption.

[MissVA15]

The American Civil Liberties Union 's executive director in Florida, Howard Simon, said forcing a 13-year-old to carry on an unwanted pregnancy to term, against her wishes, is not only illegal and unconstitutional, it is cruel.

What the hell... how is it unconstitutional to allow a child to be brought to full term, or cruel seeing how all throughout history girls at her age were already married and starting to have babies... part of the reason why girls hit puberty when we do....

[Simply_sexy]

How is forcing a young girl to give birth to a child not cruel???
Throughout history, that is true, but we live in an entirely different culture now and it is not thought of as the norm anymore. She's 13! I think that she's going to be more scarred if she gives birth, even if she does give it up for adoption than if she aborts it!

[MissVA15]

It would be even more cruel to allow her to have the abortion becuase later on she will either find that to be an easy way out, she will regret her actions seriously later on, or she will not be able to have children later on in life, which is a risk that all women who go through abortions take. Also, it would be cruel to the child that she conceived in her stupidity to kill when there is a reason that it is being brought into this world.
And yes, she would be scared, but all women are when they go into labor. If she gets scared, there is a c-section. Yeah it will leave a scar, but maybe it will be a reminder to her to think before she acts foolishly again.

[pcteaser]

It would be even more cruel to allow her to have the abortion becuase later on she will either find that to be an easy way out, she will regret her actions seriously later on, or she will not be able to have children later on in life, which is a risk that all women who go through abortions take. Also, it would be cruel to the child that she conceived in her stupidity to kill when there is a reason that it is being brought into this world.
And yes, she would be scared, but all women are when they go into labor. If she gets scared, there is a c-section. Yeah it will leave a scar, but maybe it will be a reminder to her to think before she acts foolishly again.

We are talking about a 13 year old girl here. A person just beginning to learn what it is to try and be an adult. Your comment on how this may be a reminder to her to think before she acts "foolishly" again, I feel is a little out of touch with reality. Someone obviously took advantage of her sexually and now she is paying the ultimate price. Where does their responsibility start? How well was she taught about the consequences of such an act? This poor girl has obviously slipped through the cracks of our social system and yet it seems you wish to punish her for her actions? Forgive me if I am misreading your intent.

[Simply_sexy]

We are talking about a 13 year old girl here. A person just beginning to learn what it is to try and be an adult. Your comment on how this may be a reminder to her to think before she acts "foolishly" again, I feel is a little out of touch with reality. Someone obviously took advantage of her sexually and now she is paying the ultimate price. Where does their responsibility start? How well was she taught about the consequences of such an act? This poor girl has obviously slipped through the cracks of our social system and yet it seems you wish to punish her for her actions? Forgive me if I am misreading your intent.
I think she said it perfectly.

This girl is only 13!! There has been many speculations on who the father is but I've also read one report where they think that she made a comment that it was a one of her many Foster Fathers. If she was raped or taken advantage of, are you saying that she should be punished again for being a victim?

[laurabears]

If the girl would have had parents and not been a ward of the state of Florida this would not have been an issue. I do not know about Florida law but even if she needed parental consent I would imagine her parents would have had enough sense to grant it. In Ohio you don't even need parental consent. Any girl who is old enough to get pregnant can have an abortion and no one has to know.

[MissVA15]

I think she said it perfectly.

This girl is only 13!! There has been many speculations on who the father is but I've also read one report where they think that she made a comment that it was a one of her many Foster Fathers. If she was raped or taken advantage of, are you saying that she should be punished again for being a victim?

I can understand your point of view, but i like how NO ONE has thought about the child who is being born. He or she is a human being and deserves its chance at life. I think that the Roe v Wade case made a huge mistake. It breaks one of our fundamental rights : The Right to Life.

And yes it is a possibility that she was taken advantage of, but it will be partially her own fault. I was raped. But I do not put the whole blame on the guys who did it. I dressed a little too provacatively, and they decided that they wanted some. Thirteen year olds, by that point, should have acquired enough sense, especially today when you hear about things that are going on in the world harmful to women, to do things that would prevent actions such as that, such as covering up their newly developing parts. Also, she could just be saying some of the things, like it was a foster father, to make people more sympathetic to her case. I have known and heard of girls who have competitions with each other to see how many guys they can sleep with, yes at her age, because they think it will make them grow up sooner. I do not think having her go through with the child birth will cause her to become a victim, but hopefully make her stronger and a little bit smarter. In my opinion, she is taking the easy way out, and that makes her even less of an adult.

[pcteaser]

I can understand your point of view, but i like how NO ONE has thought about the child who is being born. He or she is a human being and deserves its chance at life. I think that the Roe v Wade case made a huge mistake. It breaks one of our fundamental rights : The Right to Life.

And yes it is a possibility that she was taken advantage of, but it will be partially her own fault. I was raped. But I do not put the whole blame on the guys who did it. I dressed a little too provacatively, and they decided that they wanted some. Thirteen year olds, by that point, should have acquired enough sense, especially today when you hear about things that are going on in the world harmful to women, to do things that would prevent actions such as that, such as covering up their newly developing parts. Also, she could just be saying some of the things, like it was a foster father, to make people more sympathetic to her case. I have known and heard of girls who have competitions with each other to see how many guys they can sleep with, yes at her age, because they think it will make them grow up sooner. I do not think having her go through with the child birth will cause her to become a victim, but hopefully make her stronger and a little bit smarter. In my opinion, she is taking the easy way out, and that makes her even less of an adult.

A child born to a 13 year old who is a ward of the state. What will happen to this child? Using this argument is akin to saying that children born to women living in third world countries at the lowest poverty levels have a right to life. A right to what kind of life? Would you take it upon yourself to see that this "life" that you so protect, actually has a chance at a good life? Or does that not matter? Life for the sake of living, perhaps.

I was raped too. At 11, and yes, I was dressed a little provacatively. But I refuse to take ANY blame for what happened to me. I'll never buy the argument that men cannot control themselves. Nobody has the right to rape, no matter what the provocation might be.

[Ophie]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm)

Florida girl has abortion blocked
By Jeremy Cooke
BBC News, New York

Young mums pushing prams

A pregnant 13-year-old girl in Florida has been told she cannot have an abortion because she lacks the maturity to make such a decision.

A state court granted an injunction which prevents the girl from terminating her pregnancy.

She is three months pregnant and had planned to have an abortion on Tuesday of this week.

The American Civil Liberties Union says it will launch an urgent appeal against the ruling.

'Too young to choose'

Florida's department of children and families intervened and took the matter to court, arguing the teenager, who is under the care of the state, is too young and immature to make an informed medical decision. Judge Ronald Alvarez in Palm Beach accepted that argument and has granted a temporary injunction and psychological evaluation, which effectively blocks her from terminating the pregnancy.

It is a case which, once again, plays into the heated and divisive debate about abortion in America.

The judge's ruling comes in spite of Florida state law which specifically does not require a minor to seek parental consent before an abortion.

The American Civil Liberties Union 's executive director in Florida, Howard Simon, said forcing a 13-year-old to carry on an unwanted pregnancy to term, against her wishes, is not only illegal and unconstitutional, it is cruel.
Umm, so 13 is mature enough to care for a growing baby in her womb for nine months, then raise it? Are you kidding me???

[Gold9472]

How come the men are staying out of this conversation?

[Ophie]

I can understand your point of view, but i like how NO ONE has thought about the child who is being born. He or she is a human being and deserves its chance at life. I think that the Roe v Wade case made a huge mistake. It breaks one of our fundamental rights : The Right to Life.

And yes it is a possibility that she was taken advantage of, but it will be partially her own fault. I was raped. But I do not put the whole blame on the guys who did it. I dressed a little too provacatively, and they decided that they wanted some. Thirteen year olds, by that point, should have acquired enough sense, especially today when you hear about things that are going on in the world harmful to women, to do things that would prevent actions such as that, such as covering up their newly developing parts. Also, she could just be saying some of the things, like it was a foster father, to make people more sympathetic to her case. I have known and heard of girls who have competitions with each other to see how many guys they can sleep with, yes at her age, because they think it will make them grow up sooner. I do not think having her go through with the child birth will cause her to become a victim, but hopefully make her stronger and a little bit smarter. In my opinion, she is taking the easy way out, and that makes her even less of an adult.
I don't even know where to start with this post.

1. What kind of adult is this child going to grow up to be, raised by a 13 year old, or becoming a ward of the state? Studies have shown that teenagers aren't very good at raising mature, responsible adults. I live in a city that has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in North America. And everywhere I look there are juvenile delinquents who were raised by teenage single moms who didn't even want them to begin with. Do you think these kids are going to grow up to become responsible citizens in our society? Very doubtful.

2. It is not her fault if she was raped by a Foster parent. How on earth could you think otherwise?? Just because a person dresses provacatively doesn't give ANYBODY the right to do things to you, you don't want done. No right whatsoever. You need to realize this, for yourself as well.

3. You expect a 13 year old girl to have enough sense not to get raped?? We're talking about a 13 year old CHILD. Her brain is not even close to be fully functional yet. Perhaps there is no sex ed at her school, or none of her Foster parents ever bothered to tell her about the birds and the bees. Somebody earlier said she has fallen through the cracks of society, and that person was exactly right about that.

4. So because some girls have made false accusations, then there is no way this child could have been abused by a Foster parent. Come on, this happens all the time in these types of situations, unfortunately.


In my opinion she is not taking the easy way out. She will remember having that abortion for the rest of her life. She will have paid her price, and therefore may not act so "foolishly" in the future anyway. Forcing her to have this baby as some sort of punishment for her actions is what's foolish.

[Ophie]

A child born to a 13 year old who is a ward of the state. What will happen to this child? Using this argument is akin to saying that children born to women living in third world countries at the lowest poverty levels have a right to life. A right to what kind of life? Would you take it upon yourself to see that this "life" that you so protect, actually has a chance at a good life? Or does that not matter? Life for the sake of living, perhaps.

I was raped too. At 11, and yes, I was dressed a little provacatively. But I refuse to take ANY blame for what happened to me. I'll never buy the argument that men cannot control themselves. Nobody has the right to rape, no matter what the provocation might be.
That's because men CAN control themselves. And if they can't, then they have a sexual/mental disorder which should be dealt with immediately. The "dressing provacatively" argument is rubbish.

You've made a very good point, which I completely agree with.

[MissVA15]

I don't even know where to start with this post.

1. What kind of adult is this child going to grow up to be, raised by a 13 year old, or becoming a ward of the state? Studies have shown that teenagers aren't very good at raising mature, responsible adults. I live in a city that has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in North America. And everywhere I look there are juvenile delinquents who were raised by teenage single moms who didn't even want them to begin with. Do you think these kids are going to grow up to become responsible citizens in our society? Very doubtful.

2. It is not her fault if she was raped by a Foster parent. How on earth could you think otherwise?? Just because a person dresses provacatively doesn't give ANYBODY the right to do things to you, you don't want done. No right whatsoever. You need to realize this, for yourself as well.

3. You expect a 13 year old girl to have enough sense not to get raped?? We're talking about a 13 year old CHILD. Her brain is not even close to be fully functional yet. Perhaps there is no sex ed at her school, or none of her Foster parents ever bothered to tell her about the birds and the bees. Somebody earlier said she has fallen through the cracks of society, and that person was exactly right about that.

4. So because some girls have made false accusations, then there is no way this child could have been abused by a Foster parent. Come on, this happens all the time in these types of situations, unfortunately.


In my opinion she is not taking the easy way out. She will remember having that abortion for the rest of her life. She will have paid her price, and therefore may not act so "foolishly" in the future anyway. Forcing her to have this baby as some sort of punishment for her actions is what's foolish.

In addressing your first point, obviously you did not read one of my earlier posts is which i said that she should give the child up for adoption. I have a friend whose mom was 15 when she had her, 14 when concieved. My friend was adopted, and is a very healthy and smart individual. The 13 year old could easily give her child up for adoption.

Towards your second point, it was said earlier that they think that she MIGHT have said that it was one of her foster fathers. It isn't a proven that she did say it. Also, if it MIGHT have been, obviously she has been sexually active with other people, of her own choice.

Next, yes I do expect a 13 year old to know how to prevent circumstances in which she can be raped. But that is only if it was unwanted. Life i just said, she probably willingly had sex with other males. If she chooses to have sex, then she better be prepared to deal with the consequences.

And on your last point, I am not saying that there is no way that she was abused by a foster parent. I do understand that things like tat happen, but the System, which people are saying she fell through the cracks of, does try to get the best people for both foster and adoptive parents.

I like how you say "Forcing her to have this baby as some sort of punishment for her actions is what's foolish." It was her actions, as you just stated. Why should someone not have to pay the repercussions for their actions? And also, you say earlier that having the abortion might prevent her from acting foolishly again. I doubt it. Once a female has an abortion, they are more likely to have other ones. It is the easy way out. They do not feel like having this "burden" so they get rid of it by paying a relatively small amount (latest I heard was about $350, depending on where you go). Yes, I agree that having a baby is a difficult thing, but why take something away from someone, or in other words, take a possible future with a good family away from this unborn child? I do not disagree that she is too young to keep a baby for herself, but she is not too young to carry one to full term.

Something else that you said that struck me was that her brain wasn't anywhere close to being fully functional. Just to let you know, by age 6, a child's brain is 95% of the way completed, and the rest isn't finished until about age 25. This girl's brain is capable of making these decisions to have sex and other things of the like. But I do not think her, or anyone, has the right to get rid of an unborn baby just becuase when they find out that they are pregnant they do not want it. There are so many people in this country who want to have babies who cannot, and are willing to adopt one.

[MissVA15]

That's because men CAN control themselves. And if they can't, then they have a sexual/mental disorder which should be dealt with immediately. The "dressing provacatively" argument is rubbish.

You've made a very good point, which I completely agree with.

I agree men can control themselves, but to a point. Dressing provocatively sends signals to guys that you are ready and waiting. And if a female is enjoying the attention that a guy is showing, and things get too far, passed the line that guys have, then there is no turning back, even after she says no.

[MissVA15]

How come the men are staying out of this conversation?

Because you know that you have very little say in how a women uses her body...

[pcteaser]

I think at this point I will step out of this conversation. Some of the attitudes I've read here are the same ones I've been fighting against my whole life and I get the feeling it's like trying to explain the color blue to the blind. I totally respect the right of everyone to hold their own opinions and hopefully, the subject of this thread will find someone who will look out for HER best interests.

Good job to all for presenting different viewpoints on a very difficult subject.

[Ophie]

In addressing your first point, obviously you did not read one of my earlier posts is which i said that she should give the child up for adoption. I have a friend whose mom was 15 when she had her, 14 when concieved. My friend was adopted, and is a very healthy and smart individual. The 13 year old could easily give her child up for adoption.

Towards your second point, it was said earlier that they think that she MIGHT have said that it was one of her foster fathers. It isn't a proven that she did say it. Also, if it MIGHT have been, obviously she has been sexually active with other people, of her own choice.

Next, yes I do expect a 13 year old to know how to prevent circumstances in which she can be raped. But that is only if it was unwanted. Life i just said, she probably willingly had sex with other males. If she chooses to have sex, then she better be prepared to deal with the consequences.

And on your last point, I am not saying that there is no way that she was abused by a foster parent. I do understand that things like tat happen, but the System, which people are saying she fell through the cracks of, does try to get the best people for both foster and adoptive parents.

I like how you say "Forcing her to have this baby as some sort of punishment for her actions is what's foolish." It was her actions, as you just stated. Why should someone not have to pay the repercussions for their actions? And also, you say earlier that having the abortion might prevent her from acting foolishly again. I doubt it. Once a female has an abortion, they are more likely to have other ones. It is the easy way out. They do not feel like having this "burden" so they get rid of it by paying a relatively small amount (latest I heard was about $350, depending on where you go). Yes, I agree that having a baby is a difficult thing, but why take something away from someone, or in other words, take a possible future with a good family away from this unborn child? I do not disagree that she is too young to keep a baby for herself, but she is not too young to carry one to full term.

Something else that you said that struck me was that her brain wasn't anywhere close to being fully functional. Just to let you know, by age 6, a child's brain is 95% of the way completed, and the rest isn't finished until about age 25. This girl's brain is capable of making these decisions to have sex and other things of the like. But I do not think her, or anyone, has the right to get rid of an unborn baby just becuase when they find out that they are pregnant they do not want it. There are so many people in this country who want to have babies who cannot, and are willing to adopt one.
Okay, first of all, I'm in psychology. A child's brain is NOT 95% functional at that age. A six year old cannot properly calculate the consequences of all actions (simple ones, yes, complex ones, no), a six year old barely understand the concept of life and death, and has no concept of the abstract whatsoever, not to mention a whole host of other things. Your number is waaay off. Whereever did you hear that from?
As to this statement:
Towards your second point, it was said earlier that they think that she MIGHT have said that it was one of her foster fathers. It isn't a proven that she did say it. Also, if it MIGHT have been, obviously she has been sexually active with other people, of her own choice.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Are you saying that if she was raped by a foster parent, then that automatically means she was having sex with other guys as well? If so, can you explain that logic to me please.

By the tone of your posts, it sounds to me that yes, you want to make her have this baby because she acted foolishly. Now, I don't know if you actually know any 13 year olds, but they act foolishly all the time. You know why? Because they're CHILDREN. Is this child going to be responsible enough to manage proper prenatal care for her baby? I doubt it. She is a product of the system that you think raises such wonderful kids, and look how she turned out. Pregnant at 13. I'm not saying there aren't good Foster parents out there, but for some reason or another, it seems there are more bad ones than good ones. You're talking about this girl as though she were an adult, which she certainly is not.

And lastly, judging from what you've said, I don't think you've ever met anyone who's had an abortion before. It is something never forgotten. And if nothing else, it wakes people up to the realization that perhaps they should be more careful in the future.

[Ophie]

I agree men can control themselves, but to a point. Dressing provocatively sends signals to guys that you are ready and waiting. And if a female is enjoying the attention that a guy is showing, and things get too far, passed the line that guys have, then there is no turning back, even after she says no.
Oh yes there is a turning back. It occurs when she says no. Men can stop, they're not robots. I dress provacatively all the time, and I let men know exactly what they can and cannot do. Strangely enough, they listen.

[Simply_sexy]

I agree men can control themselves, but to a point. Dressing provocatively sends signals to guys that you are ready and waiting. And if a female is enjoying the attention that a guy is showing, and things get too far, passed the line that guys have, then there is no turning back, even after she says no.
HELL NO IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I want to wear a short skirt because I like it, that's my business. I know that guys will look and make comments, but that gives them no right whatsoever to think that they can have sex with me after I say no!

[Simply_sexy]

Ophie always tells it how she sees it! That's one thing that I love about her!!!
The only other thing that I have to add to her wonderful argument is that even if she is having sex with other guys, that is not an invitation to any guy that she's available.
That's like saying a woman is married and having sex with her husband so she can then therefore be taken by any guy simply because she's not a virgin!

[Simply_sexy]

I know that it kinda feels like everyone's ganging up on you but that's not the case. We're all very outspoken women and this is one subject that we are all very opinionated about!

[Giggles]

HELL NO IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I want to wear a short skirt because I like it, that's my business. I know that guys will look and make comments, but that gives them no right whatsoever to think that they can have sex with me after I say no!I agree big time. I love to wear tight clothing or less of it during summer, but doesn't mean I would want a guy to do any of that stuff to me either. I hate getting attention any ways. I usually don't go out unless I have to I can't stand having people look/starr at me. I will admit there are a few times I had fun playing with guys cause they don't stop starring or pointing or drooling and so on. I mean most of the time it makes me feel uneasy, annoyed, and pissy when they do do it.

[Ophie]

Ophie always tells it how she sees it! That's one thing that I love about her!!!
The only other thing that I have to add to her wonderful argument is that even if she is having sex with other guys, that is not an invitation to any guy that she's available.
That's like saying a woman is married and having sex with her husband so she can then therefore be taken by any guy simply because she's not a virgin!
Why thank you. :)

And you've raised another excellent point! Couldn't agree more.

[Ophie]

I know that it kinda feels like everyone's ganging up on you but that's not the case. We're all very outspoken women and this is one subject that we are all very opinionated about!
You can say that again!

[Ophie]

I agree big time. I love to wear tight clothing or less of it during summer, but doesn't mean I would want a guy to do any of that stuff to me either. I hate getting attention any ways. I usually don't go out unless I have to I can't stand having people look/starr at me. I will admit there are a few times I had fun playing with guys cause they don't stop starring or pointing or drooling and so on. I mean most of the time it makes me feel uneasy, annoyed, and pissy when they do do it.
You've just described me!

[Simply_sexy]

You can say that again!
You got it!

I know that it kinda feels like everyone's ganging up on you but that's not the case. We're all very outspoken women and this is one subject that we are all very opinionated about!

[MissVA15]

Okay, first of all, I'm in psychology. A child's brain is NOT 95% functional at that age. A six year old cannot properly calculate the consequences of all actions (simple ones, yes, complex ones, no), a six year old barely understand the concept of life and death, and has no concept of the abstract whatsoever, not to mention a whole host of other things. Your number is waaay off. Whereever did you hear that from?
As to this statement:
Towards your second point, it was said earlier that they think that she MIGHT have said that it was one of her foster fathers. It isn't a proven that she did say it. Also, if it MIGHT have been, obviously she has been sexually active with other people, of her own choice.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Are you saying that if she was raped by a foster parent, then that automatically means she was having sex with other guys as well? If so, can you explain that logic to me please.

By the tone of your posts, it sounds to me that yes, you want to make her have this baby because she acted foolishly. Now, I don't know if you actually know any 13 year olds, but they act foolishly all the time. You know why? Because they're CHILDREN. Is this child going to be responsible enough to manage proper prenatal care for her baby? I doubt it. She is a product of the system that you think raises such wonderful kids, and look how she turned out. Pregnant at 13. I'm not saying there aren't good Foster parents out there, but for some reason or another, it seems there are more bad ones than good ones. You're talking about this girl as though she were an adult, which she certainly is not.

And lastly, judging from what you've said, I don't think you've ever met anyone who's had an abortion before. It is something never forgotten. And if nothing else, it wakes people up to the realization that perhaps they should be more careful in the future.

My number is not way off. And I too am in Psychology and heard the number in both Child Psychology and Human Growth and Development.

As to explaining my saying that she had consented sex with others because she said that it might have been one of her Foster Fathers, I am saying that they do not know if it was a definite rape by a Foster Father. I am not saying that she certainly was. No one knows. I really do not understand how it is so hard to comprehend what I was saying. We all seem to agree that she is foolish, granted for different reasons, so why couldn't she have been foolish by allowing some horny little boy to show her affection in a way that she feels like is missing from her life.

And yes, I do know 13 year olds, and younger. They do act foolishly, but they also get punished for it. How are they going to make her own up to her actions is they allow her to go through with the abortion? With having the baby, she will be forced to grow up and realize that her actions do not affect just her.

As to the prenatal care, I do not know too many women, unless they were high risk pregnancies, that needed prenatal care. Yes, she might need it do to her age, but who knows if this experience will make her grow up to take care of this child for its short period with her. And no, I am not talking as if she was an adult.

As for your comment about not knowing many women who have had abortions, that is bull. My family lives in a community where abortion is a form of birth control. One of my close friends at home had an abortion becuase her and her boyfriend did not want to have a baby. I did tell her I did not agree with thier decision too, but just in a conversational, advice giving manner. This was about six months ago, and they are not being any smarter in their sex lives, ie, no protection.

[MissVA15]

I think at this point I will step out of this conversation. Some of the attitudes I've read here are the same ones I've been fighting against my whole life andI get the feeling it's like trying to explain the color blue to the blind. I totally respect the right of everyone to hold their own opinions and hopefully, the subject of this thread will find someone who will look out for HER best interests.

Good job to all for presenting different viewpoints on a very difficult subject.

Sorry, but this really does sound like a personal attack...

[Simply_sexy]

We all seem to agree that she is foolish, granted for different reasons, so why couldn't she have been foolish by allowing some horny little boy to show her affection in a way that she feels like is missing from her life.
I don't agree though. I have no idea who the father is and even if she wasn't raped, I don't think that she should be forced to go through a pregnancy if she doesn't want to. If she was raped, I don't think that she was foolish at all. Rape is not at all the victim's fault. The Rapist is to blame completely!!!!!!!!

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

I didn't take the time to read everyone's posts... I kinda just looked through them. In my opinion the judge is fucked up in ruling that she can't have an abortion. She made the choice to have sex and she should be able to decide if she wants to abort the baby or not.

WGST out.

[Simply_sexy]

So you don't think that it matters if she was raped??

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Oh... I didn't see that part.

[laurabears]

I am way glad that i missed this arguement . . . i said my peace earlier . . . this got way to heated for me!

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Maybe I didn't read it as well as I thought I did... MY BAD!

[Simply_sexy]

Dude, you think that saying it twice makes it better??

[MissVA15]

There is no proof that this child is due to a rape... just that it might have been due to one of her foster fathers... obviously she has been at one point, but we do not know that this is the cause of this child

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

YES!

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Ok, I just read it again and I do not see where "rape" was brought up.
I am sticking with my 'let her have the damn abortion' statement.

[MissVA15]

Rape isnt exactly said, but with the possibility that it might be one of her foster fathers, it would have been most likely unwanted, or at the very least statuatory rape

[laurabears]

Give it up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MissVA15]

Why, now we might have a guy that the girls can gang up against rather then me being on the defensive... plus, i have to get my posts up somehow....

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Why, now we might have a guy that the girls can gang up against rather then me being on the defensive... plus, i have to get my posts up somehow....HAHAHAHA...
I just think that the girl made the decision and she should be allowed to deal with the consequences of her actions.
There is NO mention of her being raped.

I don't mind being attacked... I like to debate.

[pcteaser]

Sorry, but this really does sound like a personal attack...

I know it did and I apologize profusely. Please let me explain where I'm coming from. If yours had not been the only opposing viewpoint, it would not have been so harsh, again I'm sorry. There are many others I've spoken to that feel the same way you do.

I gathered from another thread that you are 20 years old. And you are looking at this issue from the life experience of a 20 year old. Which can be quite broad, I will grant you.

By 20 years old I had 2 children. The first one at 16, which I gave up for adoption. By 20 years old I had been raped 3 times. By 20 years old I had been thru more than most women experience in their entire lives. I am now 40. And through MY life experience, I KNOW that women MUST have the right to make choices about their own bodies, including whether or not they want to give birth. I have never had an abortion, I have never considered it the right thing for me to do, for myself. But I refuse to take that responsibility for anyone else. It is your life, your choice. Don't let anyone take that from you.

Please accept my apologies. It is hard not to get too embroiled in such topics as these.

[Ophie]

1. My number is not way off. And I too am in Psychology and heard the number in both Child Psychology and Human Growth and Development.

2. As to explaining my saying that she had consented sex with others because she said that it might have been one of her Foster Fathers, I am saying that they do not know if it was a definite rape by a Foster Father. I am not saying that she certainly was. No one knows. I really do not understand how it is so hard to comprehend what I was saying. We all seem to agree that she is foolish, granted for different reasons, so why couldn't she have been foolish by allowing some horny little boy to show her affection in a way that she feels like is missing from her life.

3. And yes, I do know 13 year olds, and younger. They do act foolishly, but they also get punished for it. How are they going to make her own up to her actions is they allow her to go through with the abortion? With having the baby, she will be forced to grow up and realize that her actions do not affect just her.

4. As to the prenatal care, I do not know too many women, unless they were high risk pregnancies, that needed prenatal care. Yes, she might need it do to her age, but who knows if this experience will make her grow up to take care of this child for its short period with her. And no, I am not talking as if she was an adult.

5. As for your comment about not knowing many women who have had abortions, that is bull. My family lives in a community where abortion is a form of birth control. One of my close friends at home had an abortion becuase her and her boyfriend did not want to have a baby. I did tell her I did not agree with thier decision too, but just in a conversational, advice giving manner. This was about six months ago, and they are not being any smarter in their sex lives, ie, no protection.
1. Yes, your number is waaaay off. I think the number you're using refers to the fact that 95% of your PERSONALITY is determined by age 6. Otherwise, you are just plain wrong. Refer to the examples I gave earlier (such as: a 6 year old cannot think abstractly, etc).

2. She may very well have had sex with multiple partners, but just because she is pregnant, you can't make the automatic assumption that she has. She may have only had sex once for all we know. Perhaps she doesn't know anything about using protection, or she thinks you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex. That seems like a 13 year old mentality to me.

3. So it's like I said earlier. You really just want to PUNISH this girl by forcing her to have a child. 13 Year olds are children. Period. Forcing them to raise a baby to "grow up and realize her actions" is only going to hurt the child and in the long run, society.

4. When I say prenatal care, I mean, taking proper care of the baby growing inside her. You know like not smoking, not drinking, not ingesting caffeine, taking prenatal vitamins, etc., etc., etc. All that kinda stuff. I don't mean special medical attention which she may very well need anyway as she is a 13 year old child.

5. I know several women who have had abortions in the past. Most show extreme remorse for their actions and say they would most likely not get one again. The scare of the first abortion, caused many of them to be a little more careful, and to seek the best methods of birth control. I don't know where you live, but whatever abortion clinic they are going to needs to get some counsellors to help these women to seek alternate forms of birth control and they need to be told that abortion is NOT a form of birth control. It all starts with EDUCATION. This situation is exactly the reason I think we need better sex ed programs in schools.

[Ophie]

There is no proof that this child is due to a rape... just that it might have been due to one of her foster fathers... obviously she has been at one point, but we do not know that this is the cause of this child
Even if she had consensual sex with her Foster father, it's still rape. Actually it's STATUTORY RAPE, as she is not a consenting ADULT.

Secondly, this young girl is a ward of the state. Do you really think anybody has sat her down to talk about the birds and the bees? I highly doubt it. How can you be forced to pay the consequences of your actions if you barely understand them before you even start having sex? The average 13 year old's repertoire of sexual knowledge usually consists of: If you masturbate you'll grow hair on your hands, you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex, oral sex doesn't count as "real" sex. There are a whole host of these myths that kids think are true unless somebody tells them otherwise.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Ok... Do you feel she should still have to go through with this against her will though?

[MissVA15]

1. Yes, your number is waaaay off. I think the number you're using refers to the fact that 95% of your PERSONALITY is determined by age 6. Otherwise, you are just plain wrong. Refer to the examples I gave earlier (such as: a 6 year old cannot think abstractly, etc).

2. She may very well have had sex with multiple partners, but just because she is pregnant, you can't make the automatic assumption that she has. She may have only had sex once for all we know. Perhaps she doesn't know anything about using protection, or she thinks you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex. That seems like a 13 year old mentality to me.

3. So it's like I said earlier. You really just want to PUNISH this girl by forcing her to have a child. 13 Year olds are children. Period. Forcing them to raise a baby to "grow up and realize her actions" is only going to hurt the child and in the long run, society.

4. When I say prenatal care, I mean, taking proper care of the baby growing inside her. You know like not smoking, not drinking, not ingesting caffeine, taking prenatal vitamins, etc., etc., etc. All that kinda stuff. I don't mean special medical attention which she may very well need anyway as she is a 13 year old child.

5. I know several women who have had abortions in the past. Most show extreme remorse for their actions and say they would most likely not get one again. The scare of the first abortion, caused many of them to be a little more careful, and to seek the best methods of birth control. I don't know where you live, but whatever abortion clinic they are going to needs to get some counsellors to help these women to seek alternate forms of birth control and they need to be told that abortion is NOT a form of birth control. It all starts with EDUCATION. This situation is exactly the reason I think we need better sex ed programs in schools.

1. NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO PERSONALITY!! ALL I AM SAYING IS THE BRAIN IS DEVELOPED 95% OF THE WAY BY AGE 6. I AM NOT SAYING THAT A SIX YEAR OLD CAN UNDERSTAND ABSTRACT, THAT COMES BY PUBERTY, THE AGE THAT THE THIS 13 YEAR OLD IS. You are not understanding at all what I am saying with the world developed. There is a difference between developed and understanding capacity.

2. I am not making the assumption that because she is pregnant she has been with multiple partners. I am sayin that because they said that they think she might have said that it was one of her foster fathers. This implies that they do not know who the father is, which means that she has been with at least two people.

3. I have never said that she should keep the baby for herself. I keep having to repeat that she should give the baby up for adoption! But yes, I think she should carry the baby to full term. She will be forced to mature, even if it just a little bit. How will it hurt this 13 year old? Or the child if it is given up for adoption?

4. A thirteen year old pregnant girl will have a damn hard time getting anything that she can smoke or any alcohol. Also, prenatal vitamins are not as necessary as you are making them sound. I only know one person who has taken any prenatal vitamins, and in the past year, 4 of my dear friends have had children. The babies are all healthy. The only person that took the prenatal vitamins was a woman who was over 40.

5. Sorry, but I still don't think that once a woman has an abortion, she won't have another one or will behave smarter. The people I know and my friends know, who do live in different areas then I do, they all say that the people they know that have had abortions have had multiple and they use it as a form of birth control.

I do agree that we need better sex education in schools, the positives of abstinance and also information of contraceptives. However, then it becomes a debate as to when what will be taught. Some areas have sex ed as young as 2nd grade now, but what can you teach them that won't be too much for them.

Also, with your prenatal care stuff, there are homes that girls can go to and spend their pregnancy at so then they will be able to carry a child to full term.

[MissVA15]

Ok... Do you feel she should still have to go through with this against her will though?

Yes. Why should the baby be killed against its will?

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

I know I am going to catch some shit for this, but this fetus has no idea....
I thought this was a Democracy...

[MissVA15]

Are you saying that an unborn baby is not alive or human? Unborn babies do have the capability of feeling that the mother feels. And if this baby is killed, you are taking away a fundamental right that as Americans we believe in, the right to life.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

This is almost the same as asking if a tree, ant, spider is alive.... They all are alive yet we kill them. This young lady deserves the choice.

[Ophie]

1. NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO PERSONALITY!! ALL I AM SAYING IS THE BRAIN IS DEVELOPED 95% OF THE WAY BY AGE 6. I AM NOT SAYING THAT A SIX YEAR OLD CAN UNDERSTAND ABSTRACT, THAT COMES BY PUBERTY, THE AGE THAT THE THIS 13 YEAR OLD IS. You are not understanding at all what I am saying with the world developed. There is a difference between developed and understanding capacity.

2. I am not making the assumption that because she is pregnant she has been with multiple partners. I am sayin that because they said that they think she might have said that it was one of her foster fathers. This implies that they do not know who the father is, which means that she has been with at least two people.

3. I have never said that she should keep the baby for herself. I keep having to repeat that she should give the baby up for adoption! But yes, I think she should carry the baby to full term. She will be forced to mature, even if it just a little bit. How will it hurt this 13 year old? Or the child if it is given up for adoption?

4. A thirteen year old pregnant girl will have a damn hard time getting anything that she can smoke or any alcohol. Also, prenatal vitamins are not as necessary as you are making them sound. I only know one person who has taken any prenatal vitamins, and in the past year, 4 of my dear friends have had children. The babies are all healthy. The only person that took the prenatal vitamins was a woman who was over 40.

5. Sorry, but I still don't think that once a woman has an abortion, she won't have another one or will behave smarter. The people I know and my friends know, who do live in different areas then I do, they all say that the people they know that have had abortions have had multiple and they use it as a form of birth control.

I do agree that we need better sex education in schools, the positives of abstinance and also information of contraceptives. However, then it becomes a debate as to when what will be taught. Some areas have sex ed as young as 2nd grade now, but what can you teach them that won't be too much for them.

Also, with your prenatal care stuff, there are homes that girls can go to and spend their pregnancy at so then they will be able to carry a child to full term.
1. When I say "developed" I mean, full adult functioning including understanding capacity. A 13 year old does not have this.

2. Perhaps she's afraid to speak out and name the Foster father who did this to her. Or perhaps she's just a 13 year old slut.

3. Somebody mentioned earlier that her child would become a ward of the state. If this is true, who's to say the child won't turn out exactly the same as she did? I know they try very hard to make sure Foster families are good people, but I hear way too much about children who have suffered abuse at the hands of their Foster parents.

4. A 13 year old girl will have a hard time getting smokes and alcohol? Quite the opposite actually. My boyfriend's 13 year old niece says the kids at her school drink and do drugs ALREADY. They sure find a way to get their hands on it.

Ugh, I didn't say prenatal vitamins are necessary. I think you completely missed my point there about prenatal care. But whatever.

5. Well, nobody I have ever met who has had an abortion takes it as lightly as they once did. And NONE use it as a form of birth control. I don't know who these women are, you're talking about, but they need some help.

I started receiving sex ed classes in the 6th grade. I feel that is an appropriate age. We got a bit of a starter course in the 5th grade, but nothing really major. Just the usual this is what puberty is all about stuff. They taught us about abstinence of course, how to put on a condom and how to use other methods of birth control. In high school they had a place you could go for free condoms. You know, it's a damn good thing they taught us how to use those because my first boyfriend didn't have a friggin clue how to use one. We definitely need these classes. Unfortunately, thanks to George Bush they may no longer be available, he favours an abstinence only and nothing else policy. Dumb ass idea if you ask me.

I still feel like you just want to punish this girl for her actions, rather than genuinely caring about the "right to life" her baby has. If I'm wrong, please let me know. This is just the feeling I take away from your posts.

[Ophie]

Are you saying that an unborn baby is not alive or human? Unborn babies do have the capability of feeling that the mother feels. And if this baby is killed, you are taking away a fundamental right that as Americans we believe in, the right to life.
It's a clump of cells at this point.

I think it's funny how people fight for this whole "right to life" thing. I guess quality of life doesn't count for anything, right?

[Ophie]

This is almost the same as asking if a tree, ant, spider is alive.... They all are alive yet we kill them. This young lady deserves the choice.
She sure does!

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Are you saying that an unborn baby is not alive or human? Unborn babies do have the capability of feeling that the mother feels. And if this baby is killed, you are taking away a fundamental right that as Americans we believe in, the right to life.Can I please change your avatar?

[MissVA15]

This is almost the same as asking if a tree, ant, spider is alive.... They all are alive yet we kill them. This young lady deserves the choice.

How is the life of a human being comparable to these things?

[Ophie]

How is the life of a human being comparable to these things?
Because they're living creatures as well. We kill them without a second thought.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

How is the life of a human being comparable to these things?Are they not alive?

[MissVA15]

They are alive(the creatures that u mentioned), but they do not have the capacity to become thinking individuals.

[Giggles]

So you don't think that it matters if she was raped??I feel that the judge was right to do what he did. Her child will become a ward of the state, not right to kill the child of a child. She is a ward of the state, so when she got pregnant the child also became a ward of the state. Besides I only believe in abortion if your life is at stake with trying to carry it to full term or delivery or if that person was raped and can't handle the idea of being pregnant with the attackers baby. I however do not agree that people who are stupid enough not to use protection (most don't) should have to carry the baby out till birthing. Then they can decide to either keep the baby or set it up for adoption. It's not fair to kill a baby for the parents stupidity. It's also solves the problem for couples who want children, but can't have children of their own. This also helps the woman who gets older to later not feel any guilt with killing that unborn child and maybe even later on in life she may decide to want to find the child and try to heal her wounds. I think that every child is precious no matter what. I know too many people who get pregnant cause of no protection, go get an abortion, and repeat the process all over again.

[Giggles]

Are you saying that an unborn baby is not alive or human? Unborn babies do have the capability of feeling that the mother feels. And if this baby is killed, you are taking away a fundamental right that as Americans we believe in, the right to life.I agree with you full heartedly. (kiss on cheek and hug)

[Giggles]

1. When I say "developed" I mean, full adult functioning including understanding capacity. A 13 year old does not have this.

2. Perhaps she's afraid to speak out and name the Foster father who did this to her. Or perhaps she's just a 13 year old slut.

3. Somebody mentioned earlier that her child would become a ward of the state. If this is true, who's to say the child won't turn out exactly the same as she did? I know they try very hard to make sure Foster families are good people, but I hear way too much about children who have suffered abuse at the hands of their Foster parents.

4. A 13 year old girl will have a hard time getting smokes and alcohol? Quite the opposite actually. My boyfriend's 13 year old niece says the kids at her school drink and do drugs ALREADY. They sure find a way to get their hands on it.

Ugh, I didn't say prenatal vitamins are necessary. I think you completely missed my point there about prenatal care. But whatever.

5. Well, nobody I have ever met who has had an abortion takes it as lightly as they once did. And NONE use it as a form of birth control. I don't know who these women are, you're talking about, but they need some help.

I started receiving sex ed classes in the 6th grade. I feel that is an appropriate age. We got a bit of a starter course in the 5th grade, but nothing really major. Just the usual this is what puberty is all about stuff. They taught us about abstinence of course, how to put on a condom and how to use other methods of birth control. In high school they had a place you could go for free condoms. You know, it's a damn good thing they taught us how to use those because my first boyfriend didn't have a friggin clue how to use one. We definitely need these classes. Unfortunately, thanks to George Bush they may no longer be available, he favours an abstinence only and nothing else policy. Dumb ass idea if you ask me.

I still feel like you just want to punish this girl for her actions, rather than genuinely caring about the "right to life" her baby has. If I'm wrong, please let me know. This is just the feeling I take away from your posts.All the foster families I have seen have been abusive to the kids. I have hardly ever heard a good story involving foster families and kids of the state.

[Giggles]

It's a clump of cells at this point.

I think it's funny how people fight for this whole "right to life" thing. I guess quality of life doesn't count for anything, right?Well, you know a clump of cells if reproducing to make something more/complicated then I would have to say it's alive.

[Ophie]

I feel that the judge was right to do what he did. Her child will become a ward of the state, not right to kill the child of a child. She is a ward of the state, so when she got pregnant the child also became a ward of the state. Besides I only believe in abortion if your life is at stake with trying to carry it to full term or delivery or if that person was raped and can't handle the idea of being pregnant with the attackers baby. I however do not agree that people who are stupid enough not to use protection (most don't) should have to carry the baby out till birthing. Then they can decide to either keep the baby or set it up for adoption. It's not fair to kill a baby for the parents stupidity. It's also solves the problem for couples who want children, but can't have children of their own. This also helps the woman who gets older to later not feel any guilt with killing that unborn child and maybe even later on in life she may decide to want to find the child and try to heal her wounds. I think that every child is precious no matter what. I know too many people who get pregnant cause of no protection, go get an abortion, and repeat the process all over again.
You know what though, our personal opinions on whether abortion is right or wrong don't really count anyway. Women are allowed, legally, to have abortions and this girl's right to do so (the same right all women in the US and Canada are entitled to) is being taken away from her.

[Ophie]

All the foster families I have seen have been abusive to the kids. I have hardly ever heard a good story involving foster families and kids of the state.
Me too. How sad is that? :(

Actually, I know of ONE case. One of my friend's grew in a nice foster family. Though he just stayed at the one place and wasn't moved all over the place to a different family every month.

[Ophie]

Well, you know a clump of cells if reproducing to make something more/complicated then I would have to say it's alive.
Sure it's alive, but the clump of cells that make up a plant are alive too. Doesn't make it a thinking, feeling human being.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Well, you know a clump of cells if reproducing to make something more/complicated then I would have to say it's alive.HAHAHAHA... have you ever heard of an amoeba?

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

You know what though, our personal opinions on whether abortion is right or wrong don't really count anyway. Women are allowed, legally, to have abortions and this girl's right to do so (the same right all women in the US and Canada are entitled to) is being taken away from her.Very well said. :bigclap:

[Ophie]

Very well said. :bigclap:
Why thank you, kind sir. :cool:

[Giggles]

You know what though, our personal opinions on whether abortion is right or wrong don't really count anyway. Women are allowed, legally, to have abortions and this girl's right to do so (the same right all women in the US and Canada are entitled to) is being taken away from her.I have to disagree she belongs to the state and because she does the baby she carries does as well. Like you have to be a certain age to get an abortion and she's not of age. If you are not that certain age you have to have a parents approval to have it done. Now, she is the ward of the state so, thus must ask the state for permission. The state decided no when it came to asking for this permission.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

I have to disagree she belongs to the state and because she does the baby she carries does as well. Like you have to be a certain age to get an abortion and she's not of age. If you are not that certain age you have to have a parents approval to have it done. Now, she is the ward of the state so, thus must ask the state for permission. The state decided no when it came to asking for this permission.Can you show me where it says this?

[Giggles]

Can you show me where it says this?Honey did you forget I was suppose to be a mommy myself at one time. I looked into it, but later found out I wasn't Thank you God. I was also suppose to me an aunt over three times already. (I'm very sad, occassion I have dreams of seeing my niece, the one that lasted the longest) I also have had plenty of friends who got pregnant. The ones in ******** get abortions and the ones in ******** keep their kids.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Honey did you forget I was suppose to be a mommy myself at one time. I looked into it, but later found out I wasn't Thank you God. I was also suppose to me an aunt over three times already. (I'm very sad, occassion I have dreams of seeing my niece, the one that lasted the longest) I also have had plenty of friends who got pregnant. The ones in ******** get abortions and the ones in ******** keep their kids.I am still waiting for you to give me a link to this law...
Again, the young woman made the decision to have sex (there is no mention of her being raped) and she should decide... I don't care if she is 13, todays' teens aren't those of the 50's...

[Giggles]

I am still waiting for you to give me a link to this law...
Again, the young woman made the decision to have sex (there is no mention of her being raped) and she should decide... I don't care if she is 13, todays' teens aren't those of the 50's...DON't have time to look right now have to go do some homework, tudor night. Later guys.

[Ophie]

Honey did you forget I was suppose to be a mommy myself at one time. I looked into it, but later found out I wasn't Thank you God. I was also suppose to me an aunt over three times already. (I'm very sad, occassion I have dreams of seeing my niece, the one that lasted the longest) I also have had plenty of friends who got pregnant. The ones in ******** get abortions and the ones in ******** keep their kids.
How can the state tell her it's not her legal right, when in fact, it IS her legal right? It's HER body.

[MissVA15]

I agree with you full heartedly. (kiss on cheek and hug)

THANKYOU, I LOVE YOU... I AM NOT ALONE... (kiss and hug back)

[MissVA15]

You know what though, our personal opinions on whether abortion is right or wrong don't really count anyway. Women are allowed, legally, to have abortions and this girl's right to do so (the same right all women in the US and Canada are entitled to) is being taken away from her.

But as we have already stated, she is a child, not a woman.

[MissVA15]

Me too. How sad is that? :(

Actually, I know of ONE case. One of my friend's grew in a nice foster family. Though he just stayed at the one place and wasn't moved all over the place to a different family every month.

Just as a thought on how we only hear about the bad situations.... bad situations is what makes news, not the good stories... how many good stories are there on the news in general????

[MissVA15]

Sure it's alive, but the clump of cells that make up a plant are alive too. Doesn't make it a thinking, feeling human being.

So the baby that is developing in her uterus is not developing into anything more complicated or important then a plant? Somehow, I have to wonder how you treat children with thinking like that.

[Ophie]

But as we have already stated, she is a child, not a woman.
Her body is still her own. Every female has the right to an abortion (i.e. the right to choose what she does with her own body). Better?

[Ophie]

Just as a thought on how we only hear about the bad situations.... bad situations is what makes news, not the good stories... how many good stories are there on the news in general????
I know a lot of people who grew up in foster homes as well. I'm not basing my judgment on news stories.

[Ophie]

So the baby that is developing in her uterus is not developing into anything more complicated or important then a plant? Somehow, I have to wonder how you treat children with thinking like that.
Just making a point. I don't treat children like plants. :rolleyes:

[Simply_sexy]

How can the state tell her it's not her legal right, when in fact, it IS her legal right? It's HER body.
I second this.

[Simply_sexy]

I feel that the judge was right to do what he did. Her child will become a ward of the state, not right to kill the child of a child. She is a ward of the state, so when she got pregnant the child also became a ward of the state. Besides I only believe in abortion if your life is at stake with trying to carry it to full term or delivery or if that person was raped and can't handle the idea of being pregnant with the attackers baby. I however do not agree that people who are stupid enough not to use protection (most don't) should have to carry the baby out till birthing. Then they can decide to either keep the baby or set it up for adoption. It's not fair to kill a baby for the parents stupidity. It's also solves the problem for couples who want children, but can't have children of their own. This also helps the woman who gets older to later not feel any guilt with killing that unborn child and maybe even later on in life she may decide to want to find the child and try to heal her wounds. I think that every child is precious no matter what. I know too many people who get pregnant cause of no protection, go get an abortion, and repeat the process all over again.
So if it can be proven later on that it was in fact her foster father's child and the state made her go through with the pregnancy and it was a constant reminder everyday of what happened to her, then what? Just a shrug of the shoulders and say oops, I should've realized the signs of a rape victim but I didn't and now this little girl is truly screwed for the rest of her life?

[Simply_sexy]

So the baby that is developing in her uterus is not developing into anything more complicated or important then a plant? Somehow, I have to wonder how you treat children with thinking like that.
I think this comment was blown out of proportion. Personally, I believe that until the middle of the 2nd trimester, the fetus isn't truly a humanbeing.

[Ophie]

I think this comment was blown out of proportion. Personally, I believe that until the middle of the 2nd trimester, the fetus isn't truly a humanbeing.
Ditto.

[MissVA15]

I think this comment was blown out of proportion. Personally, I believe that until the middle of the 2nd trimester, the fetus isn't truly a humanbeing.

HOW IS IT NOT A HUMAN BEING? WHAT IS IT? WHAT WILL IT BE DEVELOPING INTO? If this "clump of cells" as everyone here seems to think of it is isn't a human being, then all that we who are now typing on here are just really a clump of cells and nothing more. This baby is going to be a human being who will just might be someone of great worth. Look at Abraham Lincoln's history. He definetely did not have a good quality of life as a child, but yet look at what he did for our country?

[Simply_sexy]

HOW IS IT NOT A HUMAN BEING? WHAT IS IT? WHAT WILL IT BE DEVELOPING INTO? If this "clump of cells" as everyone here seems to think of it is isn't a human being, then all that we who are now typing on here are just really a clump of cells and nothing more. This baby is going to be a human being who will just might be someone of great worth. Look at Abraham Lincoln's history. He definetely did not have a good quality of life as a child, but yet look at what he did for our country?
I'm not denying that it won't turn into a human.
A caterpillar is just a caterpillar until it emerges from its cacoon and is a butterfly. The chances of it being a beautiful one is high, however, it is still just a caterpillar in the beginning.
But then you have to factor in everything else. What happens if the child doesn't get adopted and is forced to stay in foster care until he/she is 18? What is the chances then that it will be an asset to society? With the statistics now coming out, I'm more inclined to say that he will be more of a problem...

[Ophie]

HOW IS IT NOT A HUMAN BEING? WHAT IS IT? WHAT WILL IT BE DEVELOPING INTO? If this "clump of cells" as everyone here seems to think of it is isn't a human being, then all that we who are now typing on here are just really a clump of cells and nothing more. This baby is going to be a human being who will just might be someone of great worth. Look at Abraham Lincoln's history. He definetely did not have a good quality of life as a child, but yet look at what he did for our country?
Well, I'd have to say Abraham Lincoln was the exception to the rule, not to mention the fact that he lived in a completely different time period.

Nobody is denying it ends up as a human being. I just don't think it's a complete human being from the get go as you seem to think. Difference of opinion, that's all.

[MissVA15]

Allrighty, I do not know about anyone else, but I am starting to get more and more aggrivated. We are all very opinionated and set in our beliefs. I know that I have things that affect my life more then this that I need to get done, with finals starting soon, so I think that I might have to suggest that the discussion comes to an end. We will not be able to change anyone's opinion on here, and also no one who has the ability to make a decision about this case is reading this. I will be sad to not be getting many more posts, but oh well. Maybe see you on a different thread.

[Ophie]

1. NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO PERSONALITY!! ALL I AM SAYING IS THE BRAIN IS DEVELOPED 95% OF THE WAY BY AGE 6. I AM NOT SAYING THAT A SIX YEAR OLD CAN UNDERSTAND ABSTRACT, THAT COMES BY PUBERTY, THE AGE THAT THE THIS 13 YEAR OLD IS. You are not understanding at all what I am saying with the world developed. There is a difference between developed and understanding capacity.


.
Perhaps the brain is PHYSICALLY developed, but not psychologically developed by age 6. Is that what you mean? And if that's what you mean, my argument still holds water. If that's not what you mean then you're just plain wrong.

[Ophie]

Honey did you forget I was suppose to be a mommy myself at one time. I looked into it, but later found out I wasn't Thank you God. I was also suppose to me an aunt over three times already. (I'm very sad, occassion I have dreams of seeing my niece, the one that lasted the longest) I also have had plenty of friends who got pregnant. The ones in ******** get abortions and the ones in ******** keep their kids.
From the article:

"The judge's ruling comes in spite of Florida state law which specifically does not require a minor to seek parental consent before an abortion."

[Giggles]

But as we have already stated, she is a child, not a woman.You know what is so fucking funny, the state doesn't consider you an adult for smoking and moving out of parents home till your 18, they don't consider you and adult till your 21 to drink, and they don't consider you an adult till 25 for your driver's licence. So, really she is still a child untill she's 18.

[Giggles]

Allrighty, I do not know about anyone else, but I am starting to get more and more aggrivated. We are all very opinionated and set in our beliefs. I know that I have things that affect my life more then this that I need to get done, with finals starting soon, so I think that I might have to suggest that the discussion comes to an end. We will not be able to change anyone's opinion on here, and also no one who has the ability to make a decision about this case is reading this. I will be sad to not be getting many more posts, but oh well. Maybe see you on a different thread.I agree, I'm getting very aggressive and have decided to take you up on this. I'm not discussing this any more.

[Uber Commandante]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).

[Gold9472]

This is why men didn't partake in this conversation. It would have been over a long time ago...

[pcteaser]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).

:bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

[Uber Commandante]

Thanks, pcteaser!

[Gold9472]

No one ever gives me a standing ovation. :(

[chicken_dance0482]

I have to put in my piece:

i think that abortion is a personal choice, personally, it is not something that i would do but i think that everyone has the right to make their own decision,what was the first thing most of your mothers told you when you started your period? "you are a woman" all women, no matter what age have the maturity to make a decision about whether or not they want to carry a child to term.... also drugs are very easy to get at 13 i smoked pot for the first and only time when i was 13, not to mention all the alcohol i had... i still dont believe oral sex is real sex... sorry, no insertion, no sex.... i do believe that a living thing has rights but i am torn when i consider the human fetus... me personally i think all living things have feelings and a thinking capacity and i very rarely kill any of them (including insects) because of the fact that they are complex beings, also my experience as a 13 year old wasnt long ago... i am but 19 now so i think that i have a perspective close to hers and yes i have matured alot since then but i still remember what it was like.... this is her choice, i dont have to agree with it, i just have to be tolerant...

[pcteaser]

No one ever gives me a standing ovation. :(

Why?

[911=inside job]

you should be able to abort kids untill they reach the age of 5.... just my 2 cent.... lol

[laurabears]

Children should come with a warrenty!

[Simply_sexy]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).
I knew that all guys shouldn't stay out of this convo!!! Just some, not that I would mention any names *cough*Gold*cough*

[Ophie]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).
Excellent! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Simply_sexy]

But you have!!! :-)

[Ophie]

But you have!!! :-)
Aww thanks. :888

[Simply_sexy]

You're very very welcome!!

[MissVA15]

ARGH... i cant even keep reading this

[princesskittypoo]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).

lol... i didn't read the first couple of pages and have no idea what was said before the last two pages.... So i'm just commenting so that you will know someone heard what you wrote!
i think abortion is needed in certain cases. so it should be legal, however there should be many many more alternatives than abortion. educate kids and adults as to what condoms are!! and birth control pills! and if all else show them adoption centers.... I do know that there are some cases where mother or baby would be hurt (baby having very bad defects to where their life wouldn't be life at all...) or mother might die.... rape and molestation cases should have this choice too i think. but the subject is very stick indeed. instead of shutting up about abortion i think there should be more conversations about it.
oh dude what was i talking about again?

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

You've got to be kidding me.... I just read through 20 minutes of posts so that I could make an intelligent contribution, only to find that the last post is people agreeing no to post anymore??!!

Well, that's just tough. Even if noone reads this, I will at least have my say.

Its obvious that no one is going to change anyone else's moral stance on this issue, because issues of life are not defined anywhere (except some holy texts) so its up to us to figure them out. For me, a plant or other animal has just as much life-force in it as human animals and its the transfer of that energy from one carrier to another (through eating, death, decomposition, etc) that provides the continuity of Life - the circle of Life, I suppose its called.

But thats only me. I recognize that I share this society with many other people, like-minded or otherwise. And we all have various 'moral' compasses. So, because of these different compasses, we will never be able to agree on making laws based on one set of them. Therefor, we have to look at alternatives.

To me, the alternative is the idea of Harm Reduction. Because we will never agree on enforcing one moral code over another, we have to revert to 'what causes the least amount of harm to society' in general. So, which law will cause the least amount of harm? Outlawing abortion altogether (which is of course the ultimate goal of religious right), or protecting the right to an abortion? What are the consequences of each?

In my mind, outlawing abortion will 1) enforce the moral code of one segment of society and 2) result in girls/women attempting to get abortions anyway (as they did before Roe VS Wade), but in unsafe conditions that will result in death, desease, trauma, etc. This isn't fiction - this was what was happening in this country b4 abortion was legalized.

Alternatively, protecting abortion will 1) offend the moral code of one segment of society and 2) prevent the death and disease of the aforementioned point.

To me it seems obvious that in terms of Harm Reduction, protecting the right to abortion is the correct choice. Even though it may very well be morally repugnant to a large segment of the population, in this case we need to look at society at large. And sometimes that means that 13 year old girls get to have an abortion, because the alternative is that she will try to get it done anyway.

And where will that lead?

Thanks for listening - This is Uber Commandante, 33 year old white male, father and husband, signing out. (Full Disclosure).Very well said... :bigclap:

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

you should be able to abort kids untill they reach the age of 5.... just my 2 cent.... lolNow that's just wrong, very funny, but wrong... ;)

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

No one ever gives me a standing ovation. :(:bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap: :bigclap:

[Gold9472]

Excellent! Couldn't have said it better myself!

He's my best friend. :) Next to WGST, Se7en, SBG, etc..., etc...

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

He's my best friend. :) Next to WGST, Se7en, SBG, etc..., etc...::Hugs Jon and grabs his ass::

[MissVA15]

instead of shutting up about abortion i think there should be more conversations about it.
oh dude what was i talking about again?

Just as a note, the only reason why I decided to stop arguing on this topic was because i was getting so upset becuase it felt like no one was actually reading what i was saying or trying to understand it, but rather just read a little bit and then make a comment before they hear how i am finishing my comment. I agree that it is something that should be talked about, but i have a feeling that talking about it online is not the best way.

[princesskittypoo]

Just as a note, the only reason why I decided to stop arguing on this topic was because i was getting so upset becuase it felt like no one was actually reading what i was saying or trying to understand it, but rather just read a little bit and then make a comment before they hear how i am finishing my comment. I agree that it is something that should be talked about, but i have a feeling that talking about it online is not the best way.
i will state again that i only read the last two pages of this thread and managed to come across ubercommander's comment (which i thought was funny which is why i commented)