Does Anyone Have Any Questions?

[Gold9472]

I'm creating this thread for the people who want to know about 9/11 so they have the ability to ask our "Resident Experts".

I and others will do our best to guide you in the right direction, and answer your questions to the best of our ability.

There's no such thing as a stupid question.

[erose001]

This looks like an interesting BB. I've been trying to keep up with the truth movement, and this is the most promising area I've seen for discussion. Being a newbie, I am curious if sharing personal knowledge in addition to research is permissable.

I've tried to share my information in various places, but it seems that no one sees it as a useful dot to connect. (Possibly I'm not communicating it well?) I did get a sideways nod in the 911 Omission Report, that there has been knowledge for decades that an event such as this could happen. (I did report my knowledge to them.) Unfortunately, they didn't specify where this knowledge existed. (i.e., the Pentagon and Langley.)

If it's okay, I'll share this info here, and also read other discussions and add thoughts based on my own research where appropriate.

Thanks for creating this BB.

[Gold9472]

This looks like an interesting BB. I've been trying to keep up with the truth movement, and this is the most promising area I've seen for discussion. Being a newbie, I am curious if sharing personal knowledge in addition to research is permissable.

I've tried to share my information in various places, but it seems that no one sees it as a useful dot to connect. (Possibly I'm not communicating it well?) I did get a sideways nod in the 911 Omission Report, that there has been knowledge for decades that an event such as this could happen. (I did report my knowledge to them.) Unfortunately, they didn't specify where this knowledge existed. (i.e., the Pentagon and Langley.)

If it's okay, I'll share this info here, and also read other discussions and add thoughts based on my own research where appropriate.

Thanks for creating this BB.

Thanks for your kind words, and thanks for signing up. I've always found logic works best when trying to talk to someone. Compare everyday events to that of 9/11. Compare history to 9/11. I also ask that people watch this video before anything else...

http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90

This video has nothing to do with 9/11, but it gives a VERY good synopsis of why we're where we are today.

[Gold9472]

Also... keep in mind that people have a VERY difficult time accepting that their Government could do something like 9/11. I say, just because it's scary, doesn't mean it's not true.

[Gold9472]

And a great counter argument for anyone who calls you a "Conspiracy Theorist" is to say that "Conspiracies" happen everyday. You read about them in the paper. If you have an idea how that "Conspiracy" took place, then you have a "Conspiracy Theory". If not for "Conspiracy Theories", the police would never be able to apprehend a criminal.

[frindevil]

Welcome, I look forward to your posts!

- Frind

[Gold9472]

Also... good advice is to rely on the "mainstream media" for information regarding 9/11...

There is an ABUNDANT supply of articles from our news that conflict with the official accounts, and A LOT of articles that lead in the right direction...

[erose001]

And a great counter argument for anyone who calls you a "Conspiracy Theorist" is to say that "Conspiracies" happen everyday. You read about them in the paper. If you have an idea how that "Conspiracy" took place, then you have a "Conspiracy Theory". If not for "Conspiracy Theories", the police would never be able to apprehend a criminal.

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind and helpful replies.

This comment really hit home. Ever since OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD, there has been a concerted effort to discredit anyone who uses scientific method to detail conspiratorial activities, that is, referring to conspiracy theorist as "kooks."

And the irony is, we have numerous laws on the books that are designed specifically to prosecute conspirators, people who conspire murder for example, the RICO laws, etc. That is, people who aren't members of the elite, anyway.

I do indeed do as you suggest, pointing out the conspiracies that are prosecuted all the time, and that there is no reason why we should not investigate prosecute conspirators in government too. Heck, Nixon and Co. were being investigated for a two-bit break-in, but it was only a pretext for the horrific and secretive war conspiracies going on at the same time. (Seems familiar, eh? No wonder so many of us are referring to "Downing Street Gate" these days.)

And it is OUR government after all, we hire 'em and we pay 'em. Special interests or not, they are still accountable to US.

Okay sorry for the rant, but it's nice to see that I'm among like-minded company with regard to the issue of conspiracy theory investigation.

Returning to the topic at hand, do you have any suggestions as to an appropriate thread where I can post my info? Or should I start a new thread, something like "Personal knowledge/anecdotal info."

I appreciate the advice.

Thanks!

[Gold9472]

Go ahead... start a new one... 9/11 related stuff goes in here, and "Worldly" stuff goes in the "New News", and stuff having to do with nothing goes into the "General" forums...

Keep in mind, re: 9/11... there's already a lot of stuff here you might want to browse through... something might catch your eye, etc...

[Gold9472]

Your YBBS 9/11 Helpers are...

Me
Somebigguy
911=inside job
Dazinith
EmceeSoze
Good Doctor HST
PCTeaser
Casey
and a few others...

I'm sure they'll do everything they can to either answer your question, or point you to someone who can...

[erose001]

Thanks! I'm already browsing, and will browse some more before posting my info. In part because I'm interested to see where my research intersects with others, and partly because I'm interested to see if other intelligence brats like me have found the BB and are posting what they know. (Yep, several of us who grew up with a parent in the biz have had some degree of foreknowledge, but it becomes an echo chamber when we share it only amongst ourselves. And, BTW, I'm passing on info about this board to fellow/sister brats. :) )

As you say in your sig, only together may we find the truth. The synergy of us sharing what we know will ultimately create a coherent version of what really happened that blue Tuesday morning.

[Gold9472]

I have a favorite uncle who was in the NSA for 30 years. He's retired now, but it's fun to bounce ideas off of his head.

[erose001]

Your uncle have any thoughts on this that you can share? (Or if you have, maybe share a link?)

Our family and family friends run the gamut - mil intelligence, CIA, and NSA. Joy.

[Gold9472]

Your uncle have any thoughts on this that you can share? (Or if you have, maybe share a link?)

Our family and family friends run the gamut - mil intelligence, CIA, and NSA. Joy.

My uncle and I have a little game that we play. I ask him a question, and he refuses to answer. We've been doing that since I was a kid. However, one day when I was doing some 9/11 research, it occurred to me that the "War On Terror" was just the "War On Drugs" with a new name. Same movie, different title, and A LOT more aggressive. Like Nosferatu and Dracula. I called my uncle, and said, "Has the U.S. Government been involved in the drug trade before, during, and after the Iran/Contra affair?", and for the first time in my life, he gave me an "answer". He said, "Possibly". Never in my life had he said something even remotely close to an answer, but for some reason, on that day, he did. I was off to the races at that point.

[WhiteGuySaysThis]

Your YBBS 9/11 Helpers are...

Me
Somebigguy
911=inside job
Dazinith
EmceeSoze
Good Doctor HST
PCTeaser
Casey
and a few others...

I'm sure they'll do everything they can to either answer your question, or point you to someone who can...YEA! If you need any help in the General area, I'm your man!

[erose001]

Another question (I'm just full of 'em, hehe). Would it be helpful to start a thread of links, so that each of us can add links we've been using? With the caveat that we should READ the thread so that we don't end up duplicating links twenty times.

[Gold9472]

Another question (I'm just full of 'em, hehe). Would it be helpful to start a thread of links, so that each of us can add links we've been using? With the caveat that we should READ the thread so that we don't end up duplicating links twenty times.

Don't worry about it. There are dupes... the more the merrier... and if need be, I can always combine threads.

[erose001]

Don't worry about it. There are dupes... the more the merrier... and if need be, I can always combine threads.

Kewl. I have to mosey out of here in a few, but I'll be back this weekend with my list. Thanks!

[Gold9472]

Thank you!

[magistre]

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind and helpful replies.

This comment really hit home. Ever since OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD, there has been a concerted effort to discredit anyone who uses scientific method to detail conspiratorial activities, that is, referring to conspiracy theorist as "kooks."

And the irony is, we have numerous laws on the books that are designed specifically to prosecute conspirators, people who conspire murder for example, the RICO laws, etc. That is, people who aren't members of the elite, anyway.

I do indeed do as you suggest, pointing out the conspiracies that are prosecuted all the time, and that there is no reason why we should not investigate prosecute conspirators in government too. Heck, Nixon and Co. were being investigated for a two-bit break-in, but it was only a pretext for the horrific and secretive war conspiracies going on at the same time. (Seems familiar, eh? No wonder so many of us are referring to "Downing Street Gate" these days.)

And it is OUR government after all, we hire 'em and we pay 'em. Special interests or not, they are still accountable to US.

Okay sorry for the rant, but it's nice to see that I'm among like-minded company with regard to the issue of conspiracy theory investigation.

Returning to the topic at hand, do you have any suggestions as to an appropriate thread where I can post my info? Or should I start a new thread, something like "Personal knowledge/anecdotal info."

I appreciate the advice.

Thanks!



I was in high-school when JFK was shot down and I've seen the brain-washing of the public to have that knee-jerk reaction to the word "conspiracy". If it wasn't there, why would they work so hard to prejudice people against the idea?!

[princesskittypoo]

I was in high-school when JFK was shot down and I've seen the brain-washing of the public to have that knee-jerk reaction to the word "conspiracy". If it wasn't there, why would they work so hard to prejudice people against the idea?!
government doesn't like ideas that contradict it's own.

[Gold9472]

I was in high-school when JFK was shot down and I've seen the brain-washing of the public to have that knee-jerk reaction to the word "conspiracy". If it wasn't there, why would they work so hard to prejudice people against the idea?!

Exactly... why have the public been trained to think of "Conspiracies" as "Made-Up Fairy Tales"? Unless... it's so the Powers that Be can get away with things without being questioned?

[jetsetlemming]

Is there another thread for non-911 conspiracies?

[Gold9472]

Is there another thread for non-911 conspiracies?

Another Forum? No, not really... you could use New News if you want... There is a UFO forum...

[princesskittypoo]

Another Forum? No, not really... you could use New News if you want... There is a UFO forum...
hey i feel like the ufo forum is my baby :)

[Gold9472]

hey i feel like the ufo forum is my baby :)

Cool.

[PhilosophyGenius]

I've got some 9/11 reltated questions....

1. If bin Laden and Mullah Omar are rollin in drug money, then why do they need funding from the pakistani's and saudis.

2. Why did the taliban outlaw the production of opium in thier country if they deal drugs.

3. According to Wayne Madsen, Sectratary Cook (and many others) revealed that al-qaeda was just a bunch of drug smugglers, arms dealers, ect...fighting the soviets. To me that's ambiguous, because that was the old al-qaeda. What about all the cells arrested around the world?

4. The Taliban wanted to work with Bush to build oil pipelines in there country, but when (according to the official story), bin Laden found out and put a stop to it. Why would he do that if he's a CIA asset?

5. If bin Laden is a CIA puppet, like many think, what does he get out of it, he lives in a cave all day. What rational would he have for doing it.

[Gold9472]

1. If bin Laden and Mullah Omar are rollin in drug money, then why do they need funding from the pakistani's and saudis.

Don't know... is more money better or worse?

2. Why did the taliban outlaw the production of opium in thier country if they deal drugs.

They destroyed 90% of their opium in January 2000. Maybe they were trying to make a statement to the United States. Maybe they were trying to hurt the United States financially.

3. According to Wayne Madsen, Sectratary Cook (and many others) revealed that al-qaeda was just a bunch of drug smugglers, arms dealers, ect...fighting the soviets. To me that's ambiguous, because that was the old al-qaeda. What about all the cells arrested around the world?

Firstly, it was the Guardian that reported what Secretary Cook said, not Wayne Madsen. Secondly, he said, "Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.", not what you said.

4. The Taliban wanted to work with Bush to build oil pipelines in there country, but when (according to the official story), bin Laden found out and put a stop to it. Why would he do that if he's a CIA asset?

Um, the Caspian Sea Pipeline is alive and well. Bin Laden didn't put a stop to it.

5. If bin Laden is a CIA puppet, like many think, what does he get out of it, he lives in a cave all day. What rational would he have for doing it.

How do you know where he lives?

[Gold9472]

And in regards to your other statement from Madsen... the part I posted in the "Protected Heroin Trafficking" thread... I only posted that because it was a second person to say that Atta was a drug dealer... I consider the rest of that piece to pretty much be fluff...

[PhilosophyGenius]

WTC Building 7 had info on Enron (and possibly Bush) and could have put a lot of people in jail for a long time right?

[PhilosophyGenius]

Questions about 7/7

1) The British changed there timelines of what happened drastically. My question is this: Is it true that on the first timeline a bomb went off at a station that wasn't even open yet?

2) A news site reported that an Islamic site claiming repsoniblity for the attack was traced back to a server in Texas which belonged to Bush's friend. Is that fluff or fo realz? I really don't see how anyone would know that so soon and no one else has reported it.

[911=inside job]

5. If bin Laden is a CIA puppet, like many think, what does he get out of it, he lives in a cave all day. What rational would he have for doing it.
how the hell do you know where he lives??? he could be dead or he could be in texas, who knows... i say he is dead...

[PhilosophyGenius]

Many people including Ruppert say that 9/11 can't be traced back to al-qaeda/bin laden. What about the fact that the 4 supposed pilots went to afghanistan and some of the hijackers recorded video will there. And what about the money transfers to al-qaeda dudes in dubai and the links the 4 pilots had with the 9/11 co planner ramzi bin alshebh?

[Gold9472]

Many people including Ruppert say that 9/11 can't be traced back to al-qaeda/bin laden. What about the fact that the 4 supposed pilots went to afghanistan and some of the hijackers recorded video will there. And what about the money transfers to al-qaeda dudes in dubai and the links the 4 pilots had with the 9/11 co planner ramzi bin alshebh?

Watch this (http://www.911busters.com/video/MOV/CC14_Q%26A_Commissioners_Review_Evidence.html)

[PhilosophyGenius]

Watch this (http://www.911busters.com/video/MOV/CC14_Q%26A_Commissioners_Review_Evidence.html)

Ya, I've seen that, still doesnt prove solid facts which trace 9/11 back to bin Laden.

[Gold9472]

Ya, I've seen that, still doesnt prove solid facts which trace 9/11 back to bin Laden.

I CAN'T trace 9/11 back to Osama.

[911=inside job]

no one can...

[Gold9472]

Here's everything you wanted to know about Osama Bin Laden, and 9/11.

Click Here (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=Osama+Bin+Laden&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+)

[PhilosophyGenius]

"I CAN'T trace 9/11 back to Osama."

"no one can..."

I already traced 9/11 back to Osama at the beggining of this thread. But here are the facts again:
-The 4 alleged pilots on 9/11 trainned in Afghanistan. They were there for a period of time before going back to Germany.
-The 4 alleged pilots were also friends with Ramzi bin Alsheibh (name misspelled) who is the neiphew of Kalhid Sheik Mohammed who's in the al-Qaeda inner circle. After Ramzi was denied a visa to the U.S. he served as a link between the piliots and al-Qaeda leaders in Afghansistan.
-After the U.S.S. Cole was bombed, al-Qaeda militants in Yemen were detained and as it turns out, there was somewhat of a worldwide communications set up there and 2 of the 9/11 hijackers names appeared there.
-The 9/11 hijackers were getting money from a bank in Dubia from a financier who's linked to bin Laden

There are tons of facts linking 9/11 to bin Laden

[911=inside job]

i think all the osama stuff is worthless crap... its all to make it look like al ciaduh did it... its all fake and misleading if you ask me.....

[Gold9472]

"I CAN'T trace 9/11 back to Osama."

"no one can..."

I already traced 9/11 back to Osama at the beggining of this thread. But here are the facts again:
-The 4 alleged pilots on 9/11 trainned in Afghanistan. They were there for a period of time before going back to Germany.
-The 4 alleged pilots were also friends with Ramzi bin Alsheibh (name misspelled) who is the neiphew of Kalhid Sheik Mohammed who's in the al-Qaeda inner circle. After Ramzi was denied a visa to the U.S. he served as a link between the piliots and al-Qaeda leaders in Afghansistan.
-After the U.S.S. Cole was bombed, al-Qaeda militants in Yemen were detained and as it turns out, there was somewhat of a worldwide communications set up there and 2 of the 9/11 hijackers names appeared there.
-The 9/11 hijackers were getting money from a bank in Dubia from a financier who's linked to bin Laden

There are tons of facts linking 9/11 to bin Laden

Sure, you can find a PLETHORA of information showing that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. The 9/11 Report, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, ABCNews, CBSNews, Aljazeera, Times Of London, The Guardian, and so on...

Can you find me any information in those sources that talks about how 19 hijackers COULD NOT have accomplished 9/11? I can find you a PLETHORA of information NOT available in those sources that shows 19 hijackers COULD NOT have accomplished 9/11.

The question is... who's "Conspiracy Theory" is more credible?

[monaba]

Let me first introduce my self .

I’m from Arab and Muslim , living in Italy , working in north Africa .

I visited USA many time , and have American relatives , so , I can say , I know the Americans , how they live , think and judge >



My question is about 911 crime , and I insist to describe it as (( hoax and crime against humanity )) . I can describe the events better than any one else .The most important notes are :

1 – No passenger planes were hijacked on 911

2 – No passenger plane were crashed on wtc1 , wtc2 , pentagon , and Pennsylvania .

3 – No (( real planes )) were required . In fact , if real planes were used , the whole (( show – scene )) will fail >

I would like to place simple question , and not analyze the events .



On 911 , the flights AA11 and AA77 , were not scheduled .

I checked , and downloaded the time table for departure and arrival for FAA site> There were no such flight that day .

More over , any change in time table should be done 7 days before and distributed allover the world . Time tables are release at the beginning of each month



The question : ( First question )

Le us suppose that there are planes hijacked in some way , they are not the same officially announce .



The second question will come later demonstrating that (( NO REAL PLANE )) hit the towers .



monaba

[Gold9472]

Monaba... I don't subscribe to holograms. Sorry.

[SikMajik]

Your YBBS 9/11 Helpers are...

Me
Somebigguy
911=inside job
Dazinith
EmceeSoze
Good Doctor HST
PCTeaser
Casey
and a few others...

I'm sure they'll do everything they can to either answer your question, or point you to someone who can......you listening to "a savage nation"?.....911 cover-up....

[Gold9472]

...you listening to "a savage nation"?.....911 cover-up....

no?

[SikMajik]

...you missed some shit, man....try to get it off the internet.....

[Gold9472]

What is that? I never heard of it.

[SikMajik]

Michael savage.....

[Gold9472]

Who's he?

[SikMajik]

Who's he?...he's a nationally sindicated person, that you may not get down there....google "Michael Savage radio show"....see what happens. He's on EVERY night...may throw alot of support your way....just tryin' to help jon.....

[Gold9472]

...he's a nationally sindicated person, that you may not get down there....google "Michael Savage radio show"....see what happens. He's on EVERY night...may throw alot of support your way....just tryin' to help jon.....

NO... that's fine... thank you... honestly didn't know who he was... I don't get out much.

[SikMajik]

...the show thats on tonight...."911 cover up"...."The Savage Nation".....google it.

[Gold9472]

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

[Gold9472]

Thanks... don't know who he is...

[jetsetlemming]

Could you outline excatly what you think went to make 9/11 happen, like a time line or something? How much of the "official" story do you think is truth?

[Gold9472]

www.cooperativeresearch.org

[PhilosophyGenius]

What do the 9/11 terms "pods" & "holograms" refer to?

[jetsetlemming]

Is that 100% what you believe?

[Gold9472]

Is what 100% what I believe?

[Gold9472]

What do the 9/11 terms "pods" & "holograms" refer to?

A waste of time.

[jetsetlemming]

What's on cooperativeresearch.org. I'm asking if you agree with what they have to say.

[Gold9472]

What's on cooperativeresearch.org. I'm asking if you agree with what they have to say.

They really don't "say" anything. It's more of a resource... Paul has never been one to "theorize". He considers himself a collector of information.

[jetsetlemming]

So what's your theory? I'm specifically interested in how much of the common knowledge of 9/11 do you think is true.

[Gold9472]

So what's your theory? I'm specifically interested in how much of the common knowledge of 9/11 do you think is true.

My theory is that the Neoconservative movement, and the corporations they represent, have slowly taken our Government away from us.

My initial suspicion was that somehow the Bush Administration was behind 9/11. It started when Bush and Cheney asked Tom Dashcle to "limit the scope of the investigations".

On my own, I did a lot of research into Bush, the organizations within the Government, and I did A LOT of reading into history. Certain things were happening that seemed to happen before. Literally, history was repeating itself.

Then I started to read other people's writings. Like Dr. Griffin, Michael Ruppert, John Judge, Kyle Hence, and was introduced organizations like 911CitizensWatch.org, and 911Truth.org.

These people had done a lot of their own research... to a level beyond mine, but using some of the same methods, etc... They had developed their own theories into what happened, and I researched them. I said... ok, this person thinks that, is there a way to confirm it. Using A LOT of their sourced information, and finding things on my own, I confirmed A LOT.

To say what I think happened is my theory, would be inaccurate. I can show you people's works, and show you who's theories I happen to agree with, but I can't claim one as my own.

[Gold9472]

What do I think is true regarding what the Official Report told us? Planes hit buildings.

[jetsetlemming]

That it?

[Gold9472]

They mentioned towers 1 and 2 coming down. That's accurate.

[jetsetlemming]

What parts of the report that you don't think is true is most likely to be true, or at least close to true?

[Gold9472]

What parts of the report that you don't think is true is most likely to be true, or at least close to true?

If I don't think it's true, it's for a reason. It's not something I made up in my mind as being false. There's a reason I think that way. Those reasons make it impossible for me to claim that any part of the Commission's report is true.

[jetsetlemming]

I mean, what's still up in there air, doesn't have as much dissproving evidence as the others. What has a chance of being true.

[Gold9472]

I mean, what's still up in there air, doesn't have as much dissproving evidence as the others. What has a chance of being true.

Whether or not Muslims were involved.

[SikMajik]

Whether or not Muslims were involved.Sup JG?....do you know anything about hsbb2. I kneed the truth!!!...lol.

[Gold9472]

Sup JG?....do you know anything about hsbb2. I kneed the truth!!!...lol.

You mean there's a new board for Howard Stern?

[Gold9472]

http://hsbb.org/boards/

[SikMajik]

http://hsbb.org/boards/Cool. Thanks. How 'ya been?

[Gold9472]

Cool. Thanks. How 'ya been?

Fine... yourself?

[SikMajik]

Fine... yourself?Good, well I have a cold. I just registered at that site. Hope you did too.

[Gold9472]

I did. But I don't think it's Howard's board. Just another copy.

[SikMajik]

I did. But I don't think it's Howard's board. Just another copy.Yup, your right....but I looked through the members list, there's alot of cool people. I'll probably pop in there occasionally. I have been pretty busy lately.

[Gold9472]

Well, if the "old gang" shows up... let me know.

[SikMajik]

No problem.

[Gold9472]

Like TomRiddle... that guy was great. And do you remember, RPC418?

[SikMajik]

Like TomRiddle... that guy was great. And do you remember, RPC418?Yeah..I remember them both. Didnt rpc argue with you constantly?

[Gold9472]

Yeah..I remember them both. Didnt rpc argue with you constantly?

Yeah... he was real prick... :lol:

[Se7en]

Yeah..I remember them both. Didnt rpc argue with you constantly?

LOL...Gold and I were mortal enemies. We argued, insulted, and down right tore each other up.

Then I got to know Gold. Saw he was very passionate about what he does - and admired that passion. HE doesn't put me down for my views, and I am completely open to his ideas.

We started this place, and put a LOT of work into it.

Very nice to see you again!

[Gold9472]

He's RPC418

[Se7en]

He's RPC418


Yeah - I am RPC418.
Sorry I didn't make that clear! :)

[Gold9472]

Isn't that fucked up dude... two people who hated each other on a Bulletin Board, started their own Bulletin Board.

[SikMajik]

LOL...Gold and I were mortal enemies. We argued, insulted, and down right tore each other up.

Then I got to know Gold. Saw he was very passionate about what he does - and admired that passion. HE doesn't put me down for my views, and I am completely open to his ideas.

We started this place, and put a LOT of work into it.

Very nice to see you again!LMAO!!..I used to fuck with him too...lol. Thats how I found out that he probably had some real legitimate points. Good guy.

[Gold9472]

heh...

[Gold9472]

RPC... you remember that poll I had that suddenly got 1000 extra votes in my favor? He's the one who got that done for me.

[SikMajik]

I am also Beetle's Lost Tooth.

[Gold9472]

HA! I forgot that...

[Gold9472]

Damn... we had some good times back then.

[SikMajik]

Yeah, really great times...I miss them. This place is cool, congrats to you guy's.

[Gold9472]

Yeah, really great times...I miss them. This place is cool, congrats to you guy's.

Man... remember Jessica?

[SikMajik]

Man... remember Jessica?Uhhh....refresh my memory a little?

[Gold9472]

Uhhh....refresh my memory a little?

Jessica Hahn...

[Gold9472]

Sik... you remember Christopher?

[SikMajik]

Yup, I remember them both....

[Gold9472]

Yup, I remember them both....

Christopher is still "around"... on the internet... remember how he would promote the buildings collapse? I ignored the crap out of him because I thought he was "whacked", but I've since been convinced.

[Gold9472]

That explosives were in the building... Whether or not they were coated with rebar, I have no idea.

[SikMajik]

Well, since 9/11 alot of people have changed thier way of thinking.

[SikMajik]

That explosives were in the building... Whether or not they were coated with rebar, I have no idea.Explosives "coated" with steel?(rebar)...I'm a machinist JG....I dont think thats possible.

[Gold9472]

No... I mean the steel was coated with rebar, or whatever he used to say...

[Gold9472]

Do you remember 911=inside job?

[SikMajik]

Yes. "Rebar" is those steel rods about one inch thick, that go inside concrete walls when they are poured to make them stronger. I remember his thread.

[Gold9472]

Sik... you ever do any of your own research?

[Gold9472]

If you wanna see something powerful, download, and watch this (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4692).

[SikMajik]

Sik... you ever do any of your own research?About what? 9/11?...only listened and looked at links and info that I got from you and a few others.

[Gold9472]

About what? 9/11?...only listened and looked at links and info that I got from you and a few others.

Watch what I just posted... unbelievable...

[SikMajik]

I'm downloading it now.

[Gold9472]

Cool. dazinith from 911blogger.com went to NYC from Baton Rouge... My car was fucked up, and couldn't go...

[SikMajik]

How big is it jon...it's taking quite awhile...

[Gold9472]

How big is it jon...it's taking quite awhile...

24mb

[SikMajik]

...and now it quit, without finishing......

[Gold9472]

huh...

[SikMajik]

I'll try it again.

[SikMajik]

I DL'd it. I'll watch it later....it's good, huh?

[ZachM]

Thanks to the people who started this forum, which I found through 911blogger.com. I'm familiar with the explosives theory on the WTC, and have a couple questions:

1) Can we rule out faulty construction in the WTC collapse?

2) Although WTC 7 was not struck by a plane, it must have been exposed to the seismic force of two of the world's largest skyscrapers collapsing across the street. Could this force, in conjunction with construction flaws, explain WTC 7's collapse?

[Gold9472]

Thanks to the people who started this forum, which I found through 911blogger.com. I'm familiar with the explosives theory on the WTC, and have a couple questions:

1) Can we rule out faulty construction in the WTC collapse?

2) Although WTC 7 was not struck by a plane, it must have been exposed to the seismic force of two of the world's largest skyscrapers collapsing across the street. Could this force, in conjunction with construction flaws, explain WTC 7's collapse?

Hi Zach... thanks for signing up... admittedly, these aren't my strong suits... however, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability...

1) Yes. Those buildings were built PHENOMENALLY well.

2) If that's the case, then why didn't every building surrounding the towers fall as well?

[ZachM]

2) If that's the case, then why didn't every building surrounding the towers fall as well?
Some people might argue that in earthquakes it is common for buildings to be affected differently, even if they are right next to each other.

I think the questions above will become more frequent as the 9/11 truth movement grows. They were some of my first thoughts when I first started studying the controlled demolition theory, and they came up again when I wrote about WTC 7 in my blog. You can read the reactions of some very intelligent people who still believe the official story:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=93&showentry=1368#comments

[Gold9472]

Some people might argue that in earthquakes it is common for buildings to be affected differently, even if they are right next to each other.

I think the questions above will become more frequent as the 9/11 truth movement grows. They were some of my first thoughts when I first started studying the controlled demolition theory, and they came up again when I wrote about WTC 7 in my blog. You can read the reactions of some very intelligent people who still believe the official story:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=93&showentry=1368#comments

Thanks Zach... have you seen 911revisited?

[ZachM]

Yeah, 911revisted is the best documentary on the subject I've seen. The news reports of so many people hearing explosions was quite a shock.

[Gold9472]

Yeah, 911revisted is the best documentary on the subject I've seen. The news reports of so many people hearing explosions was quite a shock.

Yes... Dr. Griffin said it's the best he's ever seen.

[awepittance]

Hi Zach... thanks for signing up... admittedly, these aren't my strong suits... however, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability...

1) Yes. Those buildings were built PHENOMENALLY well.

2) If that's the case, then why didn't every building surrounding the towers fall as well?

just a question, is it true that other buildings besides WTC7 partially or fully collapsed that were int he vicinity of WTc 1 & 2?

i have heard this on several 911 debunking sites with little or no proof. One of them they mention is a church and another building not part of the WTC complex

[Goatfish]

just a question, is it true that other buildings besides WTC7 partially or fully collapsed that were int he vicinity of WTc 1 & 2?

i have heard this on several 911 debunking sites with little or no proof. One of them they mention is a church and another building not part of the WTC complex

Yes, WTC 5 and 6 were also badly banged up. Click here (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc3456.html)

[Goatfish]

The Deutsche Bank building was right next to one of the two towers, and it's still standing to this day (http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=243457). What's interesting about this is this building is much closer to where the towers were compared to WTC7, which was a whole city block away. If we're to believe that WTC7 fell from peripheral damage from the collapse of the two towers, than surely this building would definitely have been toast.
Of course, this building is going to be taken down soon. This reminds me of when the government chopped off large parts of the tree which totally obscured Oswald's view of Kennedy from the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. When the tree was intact, Oswald would have had to shoot through very thick tree branches and leaves (which basically totally obscured the view of the street). By cutting down parts of the tree, they were trying to make it seem like he had a clear view.
But then again, he was never even on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting anyway (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/postphotos.html)!

[RBHam]

I need a good, comprehensive flyer that mentions the fact that cell phones could not be used in 2001 on an airplane...

Please forward to rbham44@sasktel.net

[EminemsRevenge]

Also... keep in mind that people have a VERY difficult time accepting that their Government could do something like 9/11. I say, just because it's scary, doesn't mean it's not true.

Sheeple with a limited knowledge of history... http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERreichstagF.htm shows that there is a precedent...

[Valfather]

Sheeple with a limited knowledge of history... http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERreichstagF.htm shows that there is a precedent...

My question is: who told the truth about the Reichstag fire? The Nazis or their victorious enemies? I really don't know who to believe. Many of the post-war "confessions" and "witness testimonies" were extracted by means of torture, intimidation, extortion, deception, etc. Any witness for the defense who contradicted the "witnesses" or "evidence" presented by the likes of Robert M. Kempner and Benjamin B. Ferencz were prime candidates for a cell adjacent to the defendant on trial. See for example http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/05-15-46.htm.

A careful study of the post-WWII victor's show trials will do much to illuminate what is now taking place regarding 9-11. Nonetheless, I don't wish to follow this tangent in the context of 9-11 investigations. If you are interested in this sort of thing I suggest you begin here: http://www.google.com/search?q=Walter+Lüftl

[PhilosophyGenius]

Q: People like Wayne Madsen and others say Flight 93 was shot down over Pennsylvania, others say the flight that crashed there WAS NOT Flight 93; and that the real Flight 93 landed in a nearby airport. What's the deal?

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Q: People like Wayne Madsen and others say Flight 93 was shot down over Pennsylvania, others say the flight that crashed there WAS NOT Flight 93; and that the real Flight 93 landed in a nearby airport. What's the deal?

I too am totally confused over flight 93. Eyewitnesses report different things and the site seems the biggest puzzle of all. After all, if they were going to fake a crash, why not make it look like a crash?
As with the story of the goat at Booker, the ineptitude of the presentation is odd for a top secret national deception such as 911 appears to be. I am day by day drifiting towards a cock-up AND conspiracy position.

[Gold9472]

The Cleveland airport story is probably not true. I spoke with the person who originally posted it, and she sent me this...

Jonathan,

A newswire like the AP or Reuters is a pretty common thing. I think it'd benefit you to check out some textbooks on journalism. They will explain that when wire bulletins are recalled, no one literally "calls" you. Instead, there's a retraction on the wire itself.

Most of the questions we receive about this story are centered on how a newsroom works.

http://blogs.scripps.com/wcpo/staff/2006/02/wcpocoms_flight_93_story.html

Liz

[Gold9472]

So that knocks one off for ya Andrew...

[Gold9472]

Andrew... have you seen the "shoot down" evidence?

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Andrew... have you seen the "shoot down" evidence?
Yes, I think it is the most likely story. But it doesn't explain that weird crater .

Oh, and another thing. I learned from the debunking website that wtc7 fell down tilted towards the south and not 'straight down' as Jones and Griffin assert. isn't it a shame that they are not being wholly truthful?

[Gold9472]

Yes, I think it is the most likely story. But it doesn't explain that weird crater .

Oh, and another thing. I learned from the debunking website that wtc7 fell down tilted towards the south and not 'straight down' as Jones and Griffin assert. isn't it a shame that they are not being wholly truthful?

Are you being sarcastic?

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Are you being sarcastic?

No. Why? Am I being stupid or something? I am not often sarcastic Jon.

[Gold9472]

No. Why? Am I being stupid or something? I am not often sarcastic Jon.

Do you have a link?

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Is it 'not done' to criticize Jones and Griffin? They are also highly selective in their quotes from the oral testimonies, which doesn't of course disprove anything , but it weakens their credibility somewhat.

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Do you have a link?

I'll come back to you on this one.

[Gold9472]

Nothing against you Andrew, but now I remember why I stayed away from this stuff.

I can't prove one way or the other what happened.

[Gold9472]

Nor do I want to spend COUNTLESS hours talking about it...

I like to be like BAM take that... oh yeah... BAM take that... how ya like me now... BAM again... BAM he's down for the count...

When talking about 9/11... I prefer the lazy man's approach.

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Nothing against you Andrew, but now I remember why I stayed away from this stuff.

I can't prove one way or the other what happened.

I've found the site.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/pull.htm

But you don't want to talk about it? Isn't that playing into the hands of the enemy? I don't get you .

[AndrewLoweWatson]

Forgive me for being honest but I sense a hostility in your tone. Is that something to do with my not being American? I have heard it said that we Brits are never really welcome on US forums, which is kind of sad. Still, maybe that's just how it is.

In that case, I'll respectfully bow out .

[Gold9472]

I've found the site.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/pull.htm

But you don't want to talk about it? Isn't that playing into the hands of the enemy? I don't get you .

It's not that I don't want to talk about it. I promote the theory of Controlled Demolition on this board because I believe people like Professor Jones deserve to be at least HEARD.

I see how people like Tucker Carlson obviously do their best to discredit the Professor, and I have to wonder why.

I promote the theory of Controlled Demolition on this board because to me, the untrained eye, it certainly LOOKS like Controlled Demolition.

I have to wonder why they won't allow access to the steel sitting at JFK airport.

I have to wonder why people like Willie Rodriguez says what he has to say.

The explosions that were obviously heard (from the numerous witnesses) were not mentioned in the 9/11 Report, so I have to wonder why.

WTC 7 was not mentioned in the 9/11 Report, so I have to wonder why.

The 9/11 Commission was charged with giving a "Full and complete" accounting of 9/11, yet it's obvious they have not in regards to the collapse of those buildings, so I have to wonder why.

However, I am not a metallurgist. I am not a structural engineer. I am not a physics professor. I can not argue the theory of Controlled Demolition because I am not an expert. Period.

Nor, do I find it interesting. From a personality point of view. It's just not my "thing".

So when I come across someone (you) who obviously has looked into it, and has an "opposing" point of view, I go look for someone who likes to argue about it... it's just not my "thing".

[Gold9472]

Forgive me for being honest but I sense a hostility in your tone. Is that something to do with my not being American? I have heard it said that we Brits are never really welcome on US forums, which is kind of sad. Still, maybe that's just how it is.

In that case, I'll respectfully bow out .

You're MORE than welcome here. I'm not hostile. I know Dr. Griffin from meeting him in person, corresponding with him, etc... and he does not come across as someone who is dishonest. He may have theories I don't agree with, but there are several people who have theories I don't agree with.

I still respect the man TREMENDOUSLY, and I will defend him if the need arises. Has the need arisen?

[AndrewLoweWatson]

However, I am not a metallurgist. I am not a structural engineer. I am not a physics professor. I can not argue the theory of Controlled Demolition because I am not an expert. Period.

Nor, do I find it interesting. From a personality point of view. It's just not my "thing".

So when I come across someone (you) who obviously has looked into it, and has an "opposing" point of view, I go look for someone who likes to argue about it... it's just not my "thing".


You should know by now that I am serious about 911 stuff. How many people use ther professional name on these noticeboards? With me, WYSIWYG, always has been. Ask anyone who knows me.

I certainly do not want to argue against controlled demolition, I just think we need to be aware of all the arguments that are used by the Truth deniers. It is important we remain open-minded about everything. While I respect both Steven Jones and Dr Griffin enormously I think they would be the first to want their work to be treated as scientific and thus open to scrutiny, rather than as some sort of sacred text.

I am genuinely surprised that you don't like to discuss the Controlled Demolition theory. I thought that was what this forum was all about. You certainly encouraged me to attend your class and to ask questions. Now I feel I have gone outside the bounds of respectability by doing so.

I remain convinced that 911 was staged.

I will look for help on the wtc7 issue.

No hard feelings.

[Partridge]

Forgive me for being honest but I sense a hostility in your tone. Is that something to do with my not being American? I have heard it said that we Brits are never really welcome on US forums, which is kind of sad. Still, maybe that's just how it is.

Andrew, I'm Irish and I'm on mod on this forum! We have people from all over the world on here (well, USA, UK, Germany, Canada and Ireland at any rate, probably other places too) - your nationality has nothing to do with anything here!

As to your questions re: controlled demolition. I'm certainly no expert on 911 and CD theory especially. But I've briefly glanced over the link you provided, and noticed this final line: "If the building fell to the south as conspiracy theorist point out, it is evidence for a normal collapse by fire. I think they're right."

But as we know, there is no such thing as 'normal collapse by fire' in a steel frame building, because prior to 911 (to the best of my knowledge), no such building has ever collapsed due to fire. There's nothing 'normal' about it.

I do agree with the criticism of the 'Pull It' comment though, that is not real evidence of a planned CD in my opinion. But it does raise the question (again) of 'how did they know, or guess, that WTC 7 would collapse' given that there was no precedent for it in history.

[Ignatius Riley]

I'm new and dumb and am not going to read 15 pages of posts to see if this question has already been answered, so here goes it:

Why have we not had a major whistle-blower yet?

[Gold9472]

I'm new and dumb and am not going to read 15 pages of posts to see if this question has already been answered, so here goes it:

Why have we not had a major whistle-blower yet?

If you're asking why have we not had a major whistle-blower from those who were involved... I think the answer is...

If someone was involved, and they come forward to tell the world what really happened because they suddenly grew a conscience, here's what I think would happen.

1. They would be chastized just as badly as if they didn't come forward at all.
2. Their families would be in danger just as badly as if they didn't come forward at all.

The reason being, 3000 people died, 100's of 1000's of people have died. Yet, this presumed whistle-blower waited 5 years, allowing all of those atrocites to take place. No matter what they do, they are still guilty as sin, and they would rather stay quiet, and safe than open their mouths, and risk what I mentioned.

In regards to Whistle-blowers, a lot of whistleblowers have come forward regarding 9/11. #1 Sibel Edmonds, #2 Indira Singh, #3 Mary Schneider, #4 Coleen Rawley, etc...

Sibel's been gagged. Indira and Mary can't get enough media exposure.

[Ignatius Riley]

Three more:

1) Can you get me some links to those you mentioned that did come forward? I am lazy.

2) In the second edition of Loose Change, it is reported that a hijacked plane, possibly Flight 93 was landed in Cleveland or Pittsburg or somewhere. Got info?

3) Recommend some reading. So far I've read the official Commission Report and, recently, Tarpley's "Synthetic Terror." What else is must-reading?

<b>Herring follows.</b>

Your explanation works to a certain degree. Those who were on the inside face capital murder charges, treason and such. The moles face international law violations, such as international conspiracy to committ aggression, which is punishable by death.

Nonetheless, it seems like all it would take would be one, one major whistle-blower, and the whole facade would crumble, it being as weak as it clearly is. Said whistle-blower trades information for clemency, amnesty or something.

Going further, it is utterly baffling to me that some of the suspicious incidents logged in day-of accounts were never thoroughly investigated by the media. If there is a conspiracy theory worth gathering evidence towards, it would be massive collusion between major media outlets to not only blatantly fail to investigate much of what happened on that day, secondary explosions at almost all of what were reported airline crash sites for example, but to stifle the flow of information that would have seemingly arisen of its own accord, widespread eyewitness testimony of secondary, tertiary and finally regular explosions throughout wtc 1 and 2.

Thoughts?

[Gold9472]

Three more:

1) Can you get me some links to those you mentioned that did come forward? I am lazy.

Sibel Edmonds (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2297)
Indira Singh (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=910)
Coleen Rawley (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7405)
Mary Schneider (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110)

2) In the second edition of Loose Change, it is reported that a hijacked plane, possibly Flight 93 was landed in Cleveland or Pittsburg or somewhere. Got info?

The Cleveland airport story is probably not true. I spoke with the person who originally posted it, and she sent me this...

Jonathan,

A newswire like the AP or Reuters is a pretty common thing. I think it'd benefit you to check out some textbooks on journalism. They will explain that when wire bulletins are recalled, no one literally "calls" you. Instead, there's a retraction on the wire itself.

Most of the questions we receive about this story are centered on how a newsroom works.

http://blogs.scripps.com/wcpo/staff...t_93_story.html (http://blogs.scripps.com/wcpo/staff/2006/02/wcpocoms_flight_93_story.html)

Liz

3) Recommend some reading. So far I've read the official Commission Report and, recently, Tarpley's "Synthetic Terror." What else is must-reading?

A New Pearl Harbor By Dr. David Ray Griffin
9/11 Report: Omissions & Distortions By Dr. David Ray Griffin
The Terror Timeline By Paul Thompson
Crossing The Rubicon: The End Of The American Empire At The End Of the Age Of Oil By Michael Ruppert
War On Truth Nafeez Ahmed

Just to name a few...

Herring follows.

Your explanation works to a certain degree. Those who were on the inside face capital murder charges, treason and such. The moles face international law violations, such as international conspiracy to committ aggression, which is punishable by death.

Nonetheless, it seems like all it would take would be one, one major whistle-blower, and the whole facade would crumble, it being as weak as it clearly is. Said whistle-blower trades information for clemency, amnesty or something.

Going further, it is utterly baffling to me that some of the suspicious incidents logged in day-of accounts were never thoroughly investigated by the media. If there is a conspiracy theory worth gathering evidence towards, it would be massive collusion between major media outlets to not only blatantly fail to investigate much of what happened on that day, secondary explosions at almost all of what were reported airline crash sites for example, but to stifle the flow of information that would have seemingly arisen of its own accord, widespread eyewitness testimony of secondary, tertiary and finally regular explosions throughout wtc 1 and 2.

Thoughts?

The Military Industrial Complex requires several things in order for it to be fruitful. Government, the Military, and the Media. A 4th thing talked about are the "think tanks" within Washington D.C.

The media is very complicit in the events surrounding 9/11.

Here's a for instance... on 9/9/2004, in NYC, Cynthia McKinney chaired the 9/11 Omission Hearings where the Vice President of the United States was publicly accused of orchestrating the attacks.

Don't you think that's newsworthy? No one covered it.

Thanks for signing up, and stop being lazy. :)

[Gold9472]

Military... I mean corporations, etc...

[Ignatius Riley]

You mean the Wall Street-Washington complex, whose capacity for total sociopathy manifested itself in the insider trading on the days immediately preceding 911.

Perhaps it is time we invent new terminology.

We'll call it: The Wall Street-Washington/military-industry complex

or how about WSWMIC?

Glad to be here. Am a hardened believer that a parallel or shadow government is at the reigns of this great country, that said shadow government, spearheaded by neocon multinational oligarchs, invented, planned, and oversaw the enormous military operation we refer to simply as 911.

Needless to say, my views are not popular.

I hope to fit in here.

And I want some answers.

Got anything on Flight 93 landing in Cleveland or wherever?

You have seen the new Loose Change?

[Gold9472]

You mean the Wall Street-Washington complex, whose capacity for total sociopathy manifested itself in the insider trading on the days immediately preceding 911.

Perhaps it is time we invent new terminology.

We'll call it: The Wall Street-Washington/military-industry complex

or how about WSWMIC?

Glad to be here. Am a hardened believer that a parallel or shadow government is at the reigns of this great country, that said shadow government, spearheaded by neocon multinational oligarchs, invented, planned, and oversaw the enormous military operation we refer to simply as 911.

Needless to say, my views are not popular.

I hope to fit in here.

And I want some answers.

Got anything on Flight 93 landing in Cleveland or wherever?

You have seen the new Loose Change?

The Cleveland airport story is probably not true. I spoke with the person who originally posted it, and she sent me this...

Jonathan,

A newswire like the AP or Reuters is a pretty common thing. I think it'd benefit you to check out some textbooks on journalism. They will explain that when wire bulletins are recalled, no one literally "calls" you. Instead, there's a retraction on the wire itself.

Most of the questions we receive about this story are centered on how a newsroom works.

http://blogs.scripps.com/wcpo/staff...t_93_story.html (http://blogs.scripps.com/wcpo/staff/2006/02/wcpocoms_flight_93_story.html)

Liz

Yes, I've seen Loose Change. Congratulations to Dylan & Co. on their success.

[Ignatius Riley]

Don't think the link discredits the "Flight 93 landing in Cleveland" story. Just shows that the right moles made the right calls to the right people at the right time.

Newsrooms have a command structure similar to that of a military. Boss says jump, online content guy says how high.

Dude posts a link to an AP story. Gets and email from his boss that says "take it down." He takes down the link. Is told that if he enjoys his job he will tell those that inquire that the story was bogus and incorrect. He behaves to keep his job.

[Gold9472]

Don't think the link discredits the "Flight 93 landing in Cleveland" story. Just shows that the right moles made the right calls to the right people at the right time.

Newsrooms have a command structure similar to that of a military. Boss says jump, online content guy says how high.

Dude posts a link to an AP story. Gets and email from his boss that says "take it down." He takes down the link. Is told that if he enjoys his job he will tell those that inquire that the story was bogus and incorrect. He behaves to keep his job.

Now you're getting into Occam's Razor. If they did divert a plane to Cleveland, what did they do with the people? Murder them in cold blood, and throw their bodies in incinerators? I doubt it. It would have been a lot easier for them to somehow use the actual planes.

[Ignatius Riley]

Now you're getting into Occam's Razor. If they did divert a plane to Cleveland, what did they do with the people? Murder them in cold blood, and throw their bodies in incinerators? I doubt it. It would have been a lot easier for them to somehow use the actual planes.

The folks that have no problem killing 2000+ people who work in skyscrapers aren't going to have a problem gassing or poisoning a few hundred more. Hell, they've killed perhaps 700,000 in Iraq depending on your source.

Don't underestimate these folks. Throughout the 1980s the CIA employed ex-Nazis to build, run and oversee death squads in Latin America. So assume they know everything the Nazis knew and more about gassing and poisoning people in bulk and destroying bodies.

Hell, who is to say it was passenger jets to hit the wtc bldgs. The black boxes were never admitted to have been found, at least that is what the gov't says. Why not? Truth is the black boxes were found and they reveal nothing except what the black boxes of cargo planes that resemble jumbo jets and that were remote controlled into the bldgs would reveal. No voices. No piloting activity. Nothing. Nothing was on those planes except explosives of some sort, I would say.

The CIA or some privatize organization with ties to or simply functioning as an extention of the CIA landed those planes, murdered those people, destroyed the bodies and such.

Hell, the flights that allegedly slammed into wtc 1 and 2 weren't even scheduled for that day. Does anybody have the flight manifests from them. Perhaps the names on them were fictitious. Funerals staged.

[Tonya]

----Perhaps the names on them were fictitious. Funerals staged.---
Hey, you want to tell that to the families?
I mean I understand you questioning all of this and not trusting the official story in any capacity--becaue hey, why should we, but I mean damn. People did die and loved ones were killed.

[Ignatius Riley]

----Perhaps the names on them were fictitious. Funerals staged.---
Hey, you want to tell that to the families?
I mean I understand you questioning all of this and not trusting the official story in any capacity--becaue hey, why should we, but I mean damn. People did die and loved ones were killed.

You are certain they were killed in the planes as the official story would have us believe?

They could have been abducted individually and killed.

Produce flight manifests and black boxes and I'll start buying into some of this stuff. Otherwise I would encourage y'all to research Operation Northwoods to find out the extent to which stuff can be staged.

[princesskittypoo]

i have never heard about Operation Northwoods... i'll have to look that one up....

[Gold9472]

I've read Northwoods several times, and a lot of people say that Northwoods was taken off the shelf for 9/11. I don't think that's the case. Northwoods, for me, is used to show that our Government is capable. Nothing more.

Northwoods even says:

"Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months."

[Gold9472]

i have never heard about Operation Northwoods... i'll have to look that one up....

Click on the "JG" in my signature.

[Ignatius Riley]

Yo Princess,
Follow the link, get a prize: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

Northwoods is one. Gulf of Tonkin is two. Operation Mongoose is three. The Tuskeegee Report is four. COINTELPRO is five. Common thread, special military-psy-clandestine-surveillance ops carried out by Americans against Americans. The capacity is there, no doubt.

And I think it is time I urge everyone here to get on the same page. The following statement should usher us through a portal so if you like it here, then read no further. The matrix is no place for those with a weak heart.

Statement:

It is impossible that a Boeing passenger jumbo-jet crashed into the Pentagon in the manner that the official account asserts that one did. It is impossible. Something else hit the Pentagon. This is virtually indubitable.

Next:

If it wasn't flight 75 that hit the Pentagon, then what happened to flight 75?

Did flight 75 ever exist?

If it did, was it a manned flight?

If it was, how many passengers were really on it?

If so, what happened to them, since they clearly didn't die in a plane crash?

Remember, your government has spirited away hundreds of folks and is holding them without charge in Guantanamo. Those folks have families who have absolutely no idea where they are. Maybe they think they are dead. Maybe they think they died in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in a plane crash in America. You see what I am getting at?

Going further: http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/Radar.htm

To stage a plane crash and a couple of deaths doesn't require staging hundreds of funerals, just a handful. A handful of people disappear one day. They were scheduled to fly from Boston to LA on that day. Their parents and families never again hear from them. The government tell the parents and families that they died in plane crashes in NY, Penn., and DC.

Let's face it. In today's cyberworld, it doesn't take much to create a person. With a few strokes of the keyboard and the right access codes I can create a person who greatly resembles you. They will have your name. They will have a social security number one digit off of yours. They will have bank accounts, debt, an address and phone number, everything. On paper and in cyberspace, it will seem they exist. Then I can also hack into Deltamatics and create a few bogus flights that either never happen, or happen but not as advertised by the computer system. The planes take off, a handful of legit people disappear, cargo planes carrying explosives slam into wtc 1,2, and a tomahawk missile slams into the Pentagon. The real families of the handful or so of real people who did disappear on or around that day believe their loved ones perished in plane crashes and mourn and their mourning gets covered by the press. The rest of the alleged passengers on the alleged flights disappear from cyberspace. Bam! Easy peazy japaneezy! And I love my life as a CIA hacker.

again, check out this link: http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/Radar.htm

Look, point is we gotta think outside the box here. The official version is crap. We can come up with a million alternative versions and until each is disproven, each must be considered possible in the least.

But always remember this, ALWAYS, the same parallel gov't that pulled off 911 is planning a clash of civilizations with the Moslem world and large-scale nuclear exchanges with Russia and China. They don't give a damn about human life. They will stage an event similar to the one pulled off in the Gulf of Tonkin and they will drag the American public into world war III and they won't bat an eye and they certainly won't be the ones fighting and dying. Never underestimate their capacity at sociopathy. Global population reduction through large-scale nuclear war is a very real plan of the neocon oligarch hawks that makeup the shadow gov't that is now in charge.

[Gold9472]

"If it wasn't flight 75 that hit the Pentagon, then what happened to flight 75?

Did flight 75 ever exist?"

Flight 77. And I think otherwise.

[Ignatius Riley]

You think a boing passenger jumbo jet hit the Pentagon?

Did you by chance check out the links I posted?

[Gold9472]

You think a boing passenger jumbo jet hit the Pentagon

I think it's possible.

[Gold9472]

Does that mean you have to try and convince me otherwise, or frown upon me for my belief? I am a 9/11 Truther. I do believe the Government was behind it. Isn't that enough?

[Ignatius Riley]

Question:

what was the dimension of the hole blasted in the wall of the Pentagon by whatever it was that hit it?

Question:

what is the wingspan of a Boeing 757?

Question:

how tall is the tail of a Boeing 757?

[Gold9472]

Question:

Do you have a video of something other than Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

[Ignatius Riley]

Does that mean you have to try and convince me otherwise, or frown upon me for my belief? I am a 9/11 Truther. I do believe the Government was behind it. Isn't that enough?

Naw, man I'm not frowning. Forgive my abrassiveness. You and I are on the same mission and I'm not here to stomp on your toes I swear.

But I am going to prod you, bro. I am going to try and get you to see what it is that I am seeing.

[Ignatius Riley]

Question:

Do you have a video of something other than Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

I wish!

[Gold9472]

I wish!

Until you do, then please don't try to convince me otherwise. I've been doing this a long time, and have seen everything you're going to try to use to convince me, and I have seen everything that I would use to try and convince you otherwise, and I honestly don't like the debate anymore.

[Ignatius Riley]

But it is funny that you bring up video footage of the incident. Video footage of the incident taken from a nearby gas station, from interstate surveillance cameras, and by a nearby hotel were immediately confiscated by the feds.

In 05 the feds released a handful of framed from these films. These frames show an explosion, but don't show anything that could have caused the explosion.

The Pentagon is the first passenger jet crash on American soil to not be investigated by the FAA. THE FIRST EVER!

Wreckage from the crash was taken away by the feds under tarps. It was never turned over to the public or the FAA.

Official accounts have the plane "vaporizing." So the plane first had to burn at such a temp that the steel and other metalic parts melted and then at such a point that the liquid steel et all turned gaseous.

That is another historical first!

The size of the hole in the Pentagon was roughly 15' by 15'. A tiny hole. The wings didn't shear off and bounce back onto the lawn. Nope. They were sucked into the hole like it was the mouth of a vaccuum.

And btw, Hani Hanjour, screwball and flight school dropout, couldn't fly but according to official reports he managed a decending maneuver that would be virtually impossible for many longtime pro pilots. Some have argued that the maneuver was impossible period. That the plane would have broken up or fallen out of the sky as a result of such a loop-de-loop at such a speed at such a downward angle.

[Gold9472]

Mr. Riley, I'm going to teach you how to approach the Pentagon. Listen up very closely because there is a lot of experience behind these words.

How did Flight 77 manage to hit the Pentagon 34 minutes AFTER the SECOND tower was hit? In the most defended air space in the world? Into the most secure building in the world? WITH people like George Tenet stating AFTER the FIRST tower was hit, "You know, this has bin Laden’s fingerprints all over it. (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showpost.php?p=56249&postcount=13)"?

You answer those questions, and you will have solved the puzzle.

[Ignatius Riley]

How did Flight 77 manage to hit the Pentagon 34 minutes AFTER the SECOND tower was hit?

Military war games created a ruse, a smokescreen that basically crippled air defense over America for roughly 2 hours, maybe longer when you consider the assassination attempt on Bush 43 that day.

Some of the war games were switched from exercise to "real time" during the course of the games.

Same thing happened with the July 7 bombings of the London underground. Afterwards a former Scotland Yard figurehead, named Power or Powers or something like that, who was working in the private sect went on the record saying that his company was conducting security exercises for the city and banking community in which fake bombs were supposed to be placed in what strangely enough turned out to be the exact locations of where the real bombs went off. A fantastic coincidence.

"WITH people like George Tenet stating AFTER the FIRST tower was hit, "You know, this has bin Laden’s fingerprints all over it. (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showpost.php?p=56249&postcount=13)"?"

Bin Laden is a CIA asset. Most of the Moslem world does not consider him to be any sort of prophet or leader. Instead they see him as an American tool, a CIA patsy. Those statesmen who actually have met with him remember him as something of an dupe, not a very bright guy, maybe capable of carrying out a bomging of a mall with some help but definitely not carrying out an operation the size and scope of 911, especially using laptops and from a cave in Afghanistan. He received kidney dialysis in an American hospital in Dubai in June 2001 where he met with the CIA Bureau Chief for the Mideast. At that point in time he was wanted for his alleged role in the bombings of US embassies.

In the days after 911 he was quoted by both Al Jazeer and a Pakistani paper as denying having anything to do with 911. The tape showing his confession to 911 is clearly bogus with the left-handed Bin Laden writing with his right hand, wearing gold jewerly, this after apparently gaining 50 pounds and having facial reconstructive surgury to lift his cheek bones.

Tenet is a mole or simply a duped yes-man to a mole.

[Ignatius Riley]

I would like to add that on 9/11 the FAA, when it got rolling on the hijackings, at one point reported that as many as 11 planes had been hijacked.


Fake blips on a radar, hmmm, sounds remotely similar to a certain incident in the Gulf of Tonkin.

[Gold9472]

The wargames, the "switch", the Bin Laden tape being fake, etc... are theories that need to be examined, absolutely, but they are theories nevertheless. They are theories based on information we have been able to obtain. As regular citizens. However, there is more to the story than we know. More that we don't know because we don't have the proper access. Access to the information, and access to the people involved.

It's their job to answer OUR questions, and we must hold them to it.

[Ignatius Riley]

The wargames, the "switch", the Bin Laden tape being fake, etc... are theories that need to be examined, absolutely, but they are theories nevertheless. They are theories based on information we have been able to obtain. As regular citizens. However, there is more to the story than we know. More that we don't know because we don't have the proper access. Access to the information, and access to the people involved.

It's their job to answer OUR questions, and we must hold them to it.

TRUE! ABSOLUTELY! AMEN!

[Ignatius Riley]

Now where were we. Oh, right, the links I dropped earlier to team8plus.org purportedly pose evidence that many of the flights that allegedly crashed that day were elsewhere when they were, by the official account, slamming into bldgs.

Said team8: "Analysis of the flight paths reveals the possibility that the planes were switched for substitute "drone" planes, operated by remote control and loaded with explosives to cause maximum damage. Although this is somewhat speculative, it is important to point out the anomalies in the flight paths that might lead us to consider this scenario. If you are unfamiliar with "plane-swapping" and "remote controlled plane" theories, please refer to Appendix C (Operation Northwoods and Remote Controlled Planes)"

http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/Radar.htm

[Gold9472]

Now where were we. Oh, right, the links I dropped earlier to team8plus.org purportedly pose evidence that many of the flights that allegedly crashed that day were elsewhere when they were, by the official account, slamming into bldgs.

And I don't think it makes sense that they would go through the trouble of switching those planes. I think it makes more sense that based on today's technology, they would somehow have the ability to take control of those planes instead.

[Gold9472]

In regards to team8. Don't they support the CGI theory regarding the footage of the planes hitting the buildings?

[Gold9472]

Don't they promote something other than a plane hitting those buildings?

[Ignatius Riley]

And I don't think it makes sense that they would go through the trouble of switching those planes. I think it makes more sense that based on today's technology, they would somehow have the ability to take control of those planes instead.
Agreed. Logically, if you are going to have to kill a bunch of passengers anyway, why not go ahead and really kill them in plane crashes.

Playin' the devil's advocate, I would suggest that for your psy-op that is the wtc, you will want big explosions. So you don't want a passenger jet. You want a cargo plane carrying explosives. So those two planes must be switched for that reason.

The pentagon wasn't hit by a boeing passenger jumbo jet, a 757. That plane had to be switched.

Now what if, since a couple of those flights weren't even scheduled for that day, those flights were actually part of military exercises, were actual passenger jumbo jets, were mostly empty except for a few military personnel, actually did take off from civilian airports, flew around and were at times remote controlled and then were landed safely elsewhere. This might explain some of the additional ghost blips on the FAA's radar that morning.

Flight 93 is your propaghanda plane. Real passengers, real takeoff. Real Global Hawk takeover of navigation systems. Crash faked (because you don't want the FAA finding evidence of the Global Hawk hijacking when it conducts a real deal legitimate investigation of a real crash). Plane landed. People deboarded then killed or taken to guantanamo or somewhere so you have all your funerals and human interest story fodder. Black box transcripts faked. Cell phone calls faked. Makes for a great story about heroism against Moslem monsters.

And then later: Flight 93 the movie! The propaghanda psy-op nears completion.

[Ignatius Riley]

Don't they promote something other than a plane hitting those buildings?

I guess. That seems to be exactly what they are getting at. Planes being switched for drones or something of the sort, an assimilation of the events of that day with what information is out there about the National Recognaissance Office conducting war game exercises wherein planes are remote controlled into buildings.

To be honest, bro, I originally went to the site bc it was trumpeted as a scout for military war games. I wanted to see what was coming up.

[Gold9472]

The pentagon wasn't hit by a boeing passenger jumbo jet, a 757.

What I'm about to present to you is what they're telling us. If you think the idea that this evidence is fake, I will grant you that that is a good theory. Based on the passport that was found at the WTC, and the report from that reporter who said that passport was planted. However, I choose to look at other pieces of evidence as if it's "real" until I hear otherwise. It saves me time, and simplifies the case against the Government. So if you're going to say as fact that this piece of evidence is fake, please present to me evidence of that. Someone coming forward who inspected it, and says that it's fake, etc...

Flight 77 Hijacker "Saudi Arabia Student Identity Card" Found In Rubble
Thanks to Paul Thompson (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org)

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf

FBI records of airline personnel indicate that some recall specific hijackers presenting U.S. identification documents with their airline tickets. The American Airlines ticket agent at Logan Airport recalls the al Shehri brothers presenting drivers’ licenses at check-in. FBI report of investigation, Elvia C., Sept. 13, 2001. When Hamza al Ghamdi and Ahmed al Ghamdi checked in at Logan Airport in Boston, Hamza al Ghamdi used his Florida driver’s license and Ahmed al Ghamdi used his fraudulently obtained Virginia identification card. FBI report of investigation, interview of Gail J., Sept. 21, 2001. At Dulles, Khalid al Mihdhar and Majed Moqed provided their fraudulently obtained Virginia identification cards at the ticket counter. FBI report of investigation, interview of Susan S., American Airline ticketing agent, Sept. 13, 2001. A “Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Student Identity Card” was found in the rubble at the Pentagon with Moqed’s name on it. Forensic examination indicated that it may have been fraudulent. United States Secret Service Forensic Services report for the FBI PENTTBOM investigation regarding the physical examination of forensic science research request, Oct. 10, 2001. Hijackers Omari, Wail al Shehri and Hanjour also had international driver licenses and Jarrah had an international student identification card.

[Ignatius Riley]

Um, yeah, well the plane mostly vaporized but an id card survived. Wrong. The card was probably planted or the story about the card being found was invented.

All sorts of problems arise when we start talking about those hijackers. Many of the alleged hijackers turned up alive and well living elsewhere within days of 911. Of the flight manifests on that day, Moslem names were not on the lists of, I believe, more than one of those flights. Of the alleged hijackers, a startling percentage received military training on military bases, lived on military bases and in the weeks prior lived near NSA headquarters. Then you have the inconsistencies within their characters. Attah, a reported Moslem extremist, loved booze, strippers, fast cars and pork chops. There were apparently two Jarrahs living in America, one who drank beer and was a moderate Moslem from a wealthy family and who was at times living in wedlock with his girlfriend. The other was first reported to be living in Queens, visited Afghanistan, and then later moved to the same town as his doppleganger to shadow his movements before finally hijacking his identity.

In the days before 911, the alleged hijackers did their jobs as patsies. They were seen and seen often. They flashed id, argued loudly with officials and civilians in public places, in other words were noticed. Hell, Attah left two cars to be found, one in Seattle, one in Boston. That is the best part: cars with books on Judo and archaic Moslem theology. That would be like a soccer player going to a game and leaving in his car a book on dribbling and corner kicks.

Of the military exercises that day, at least one involved hijacked airlines. It is possible that these guys, patises and tools that they were, were part of those war games. The boarded planes expecting to hijack them and fly them and demand the release of Moslem Brotherhood members incarcerated in Egypt. In short they were actors playing the role of hijackers in military war games. What became of them, who knows? Attah apparently called his dad the day after 911.

[Gold9472]

Um, yeah, well the plane mostly vaporized but an id card survived. Wrong. The card was probably planted or the story about the card being found was invented.

All sorts of problems arise when we start talking about those hijackers. Many of the alleged hijackers turned up alive and well living elsewhere within days of 911. Of the flight manifests on that day, Moslem names were not on the lists of, I believe, more than one of those flights. Of the alleged hijackers, a startling percentage received military training on military bases, lived on military bases and in the weeks prior lived near NSA headquarters. Then you have the inconsistencies within their characters. Attah, a reported Moslem extremist, loved booze, strippers, fast cars and pork chops. There were apparently two Jarrahs living in America, one who drank beer and was a moderate Moslem from a wealthy family and who was at times living in wedlock with his girlfriend. The other was first reported to be living in Queens, visited Afghanistan, and then later moved to the same town as his doppleganger to shadow his movements before finally hijacking his identity.

In the days before 911, the alleged hijackers did their jobs as patsies. They were seen and seen often. They flashed id, argued loudly with officials and civilians in public places, in other words were noticed. Hell, Attah left two cars to be found, one in Seattle, one in Boston. That is the best part: cars with books on Judo and archaic Moslem theology. That would be like a soccer player going to a game and leaving in his car a book on dribbling and corner kicks.

Of the military exercises that day, at least one involved hijacked airlines. It is possible that these guys, patises and tools that they were, were part of those war games. The boarded planes expecting to hijack them and fly them and demand the release of Moslem Brotherhood members incarcerated in Egypt. In short they were actors playing the role of hijackers in military war games. What became of them, who knows? Attah apparently called his dad the day after 911.

Mohammad Atta - I Wonder... (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3993)

Feel free to contribute.

[Ignatius Riley]

Have I told you that you are good?

[Gold9472]

Have I told you that you are good?

Nope. Thanks.

[Ignatius Riley]

So here it is, the theory:

Those hijackers, assets of drug-running rings within the FBI and CIA, on that day participated in military exercises in which they were to stage hijackings of multiple planes at once. On the planes were personnel who were aware of the exercise. The hijackers boarded civilian passenger jets, boeing jumbo jets, in civilian airports. On the planes were military and law enforcement personnel. The flights departed from the civilian airports posing as regular flights. The hijackers played their role. The planes were hijacked from the hijackers by hackers working for NRO or other intelligence organizations, be they private or public, and were flown around via remote control and registered as ghost blips, a few of the dozens to surface that day, on civilian airline agency radars. The planes landed safely elsewhere. Attah calls home the next day after getting paid. The planes used in the war games remain in circulation, one of which is not decommissioned until Dec. 2005.

Back to 911, meanwhile, a switheroo occurred in which remote controlled cargo planes carrying explosives were guided into wtc 1 and 2 and a tomohawk missile was launched from an aircraft carrier and hit the Pentagon, all according to war game exercises occurring that day that were switched from exercise to real time at some point by some moles.

Add that to the billions of theories that are now in circulation

[Gold9472]

Ok.

[Gold9472]

But make sure when you talk about it that you emphasize that it's only a theory.

[Ignatius Riley]

Now that I think about it I laugh. Bro it ain't even a theory. To be a theory it must survive as a hypothesis. So I could say it is a hypothesis, but to be a hypothesis it must be stated in the negative, which it ain't.

So it is a dysfunctional hypothesis, one that is based on some sound evidence and some speculation.

[Ignatius Riley]

So Gold,

You scared? Afraid that you will be suicided like H.S. Thompson?

[PhilosophyGenius]

Wassup Ignatius Riley!

If I may join this conversation; I'm not a 9/11 expert like you 2 are but there are also many news clips saying the there was no real evidence of plane wreckage in Pennsylvania. So that adds to the argument that the planes were switched.

[Ignatius Riley]

Whatup!

Yep. The alleged Penn. crash would be the first in which a plane basically disappeared into a hole in the ground. Day-of reports have coroners saying they haven't seen so much as a drop of blood from the wreck site. A Washinton Post reporter described the wreckage site as basically being a hole dug in the ground with scrap metal dumped in it.

And then things get sketchy, what with reports of debris from flight 93 being allegedly found as far away as eight miles.

Check out this link for more:

http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=we_have_holes

When this thing prints out it is something like 30 pages. Take the time it takes to read it. It is an easy read and some good points are contained therein.

[PhilosophyGenius]

Coo thanks!

[Gold9472]

So Gold,

You scared? Afraid that you will be suicided like H.S. Thompson?

Not in the least.

[Ignatius Riley]

For those not wanting to give the amount of time it takes to read a 31 page essay an imporant chunk of it follows:


"Phantom Flights?

Before examining physical evidence—our principal task—we should note that many facts about the alleged flights subvert the official account. The Colgan (http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=12490&mesg_id=13789&page) Air flight 5930 (http://team8plus.org/content.php?article.16) Portland-Logan (http://www.911dossier.co.uk/attabag.html) is riddled (http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/print.php?storyid=583&PHPSESSID=811da043acf6d22bb608e74f73f106e) with questions (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/atta_9-11.html) and AA Flights 11 and 77 (http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=36354&group=webcast) were not scheduled that day. Official BTS data are meticulously kept because of liability issues. The two American Airlines Boeing 767s in question—tail numbers N334AA (http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=334AA) and N644AA (http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=644AA)—were deregistered January 14, 2002, but without evidence they were involved in the alleged flights. Mohammed Atta supposedly left a rental car at Portland International and absurdly left a second car full of incriminating evidence at Logan, in other words, evidence was planted/fabricated. And was Gate 26 or 32 used for the unscheduled flight 11? The two United Airlines aircraft that allegedly crashed that day—tail number N612UA (http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=612UA) for Flight 175 and N591UA (http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=591UA) for Flight 93—were deregistered four years later on September 28, 2005, despite a requirement that destroyed aircraft be deregistered within 24 hours.

Further fueling suspicion, all four cross-country flights had improbably light loads with most seats vacant (approximately 52-86% empty) while the airlines, government and media never produced credible passenger manifests (http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=65), a routine matter, and all inexplicably lacked Arab names. Mainstream media have reported five to nine alleged hijackers alive while ongoing searches of birth, death and marriage records suggest some passenger names were fake (http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/911passengerlist.html). Families of air crash victims remain silent (http://arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/37580.htm), suspicious behavior while government lies and spins, and families of ground zero victims are outspoken. Searches thus far fail to show hull insurance paid on the four jetliners. Then we have missing surveillance video tapes, an incredible string of airport security/screening failures, flights disappearing from conventional radar, missing flight data and cockpit voice recorders, gagged flight controllers and firefighters, physically impossible cell phone (http://www.physics911.net/projectachilles.htm) calls with fake dialogue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1556096.stm) (“I see water and buildings. Oh my God! Oh my God!” “Hello, mom. This is Mark Bingham”), not to mention the technical impossibility of the purported Arabs piloting the planes as advertised. Little if anything checks out in the official account about the alleged flights. Corporate media steer a wide berth from these problems in favor of canonizing the official conspiracy theory."

[Ignatius Riley]

Not in the least.

Then clearly you aren't in deep enough!

Just playin'. Keep your eyes open, bro. This conversation is being monitored, I guarantee.

[Gold9472]

Then clearly you aren't in deep enough!

Just playin'. Keep your eyes open, bro. This conversation is being monitored, I guarantee.

No, I just don't fear my Government anymore.

[Ignatius Riley]

No, I just don't fear my Government anymore.

My hero!

So when do we sue for wrongful death?

[Gold9472]

My hero!

So when do we sue for wrongful death?

Lawsuits haven't worked as of yet.

[Partridge]

Gold has nothing to fear, we all know he's on the CIA payroll.

They keep him in drum-kits and bongos.

[Ignatius Riley]

CIA you say? So Gold, you hiring?

Anyway, a recent timeline by Team8plus.org ( http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/Radar.htm ) provides valuable evidence backing my dysfunctional hypothesis:


7: 59 Flight 11 takes off from Logan airport
8:14 United Airlines Flight 175 takes off from Logan airport
8:14 Hijacking of Flight 11 apparently begins. It may have been a staged hijacking or part of a terror drill.
8:21 Flight 11 switches off its transponder at the edge of an area that just happens to have no primary radar coverage. Two "drone" flights (remote controlled plane bombs) fly in from this no-radar zone and creep into the radar shadow above Flight 11. These drone flights may have been using Operation Vigilant Guardian as additional cover. Operation Vigilant Guardian was a huge military exercise taking place that week featuring Russian planes flying over the Arctic Circle to attack America. Meanwhile, Flight 11 begins to reduce its altitude.
8:27 Flight 11 appears to turn very close to Schenectady county airport. What really happens is that Flight 11 flies down towards the Mohawk river valley towards Griffiss Air Base (6) and the two drones, still flying in formation, continue down the Hudson river towards New York City.
Flight 11 either lands at Griffiss Air Base (home of NEADS (http://www.neads.ang.af.mil/), the North Eastern base for NORAD) or flies on to be shot down or destroyed over the great lakes.
8:39-8:43 At this point, Drone Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 come very close together. The remaining drone peels off from formation to rendezvous with Flight 175 over Stewart International airport.
8:46:40 Flight 11(drone) crashes into the North Tower of the World Trade Center.
8:42 Just before the crash, Flight 93 is taking off from Newark, around 42 minutes late.
8:47 Flight 175 switches off its transponder, right at the same time that Flight 93 makes a little unexplained detour to meet it. Both these planes are in the same place at the same time and Flight 175 disappears. Coincidence? No, Flight 175 flies West in Flight 93's radar shadow. Flight 175 goes on to land, possibly at Cleveland or Pittsburgh airport under cover of diversion. 8:51 Flight 175 deviates from its assigned cruising altitude.
(Time not available) Air traffic controllers spot an "intruder over Allentown" (Washington Post, Sept 17th 2001 (http://billstclair.com/911timeline/2001/wpost091701.html)). This is a plane flying with an unidentified transponder code and is later assumed to be Flight 175.
9:03 It is, in fact, a drone flight that goes on to crash into the South Tower of the World Trade Center.
9:41 Flight 93, also in the midst of a staged hijacking or terror drill turns off its transponder and drops down low. A drone plane flying in through another hole in the primary radar coverage slips in to take its place on the radar.
10:03 Just before it is shot down, flight 93 is approaching Johnstown Airport. Coincidentally there was a meeting of the Local Emergency Planning Agency (LEPA) in the control tower of Johnstown Airport the day before (See The Johnstown "Terror Team" Cover-up (http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1094)). Was this plane supposed to be part of a terrorist attack drill? The drone, a white unmarked plane, is seen by numerous witnesses circling the crash site. Its presence is never properly explained
8:20 Flight 77 takes off from Dulles Airport (Washington D.C.)
8:39 Flight 77 makes a small detour to the north in an area with no primary radar coverage. At this point it meets the drone, which has flown down from the north through an area with no radar coverage.
8:51 Flight 77 makes its last radio contact. 8:56 It then switches off its transponder and disappears from ATC radar scopes. This is due to the fact that the radar tracking it at the time is a "Secondary only" radar site that depends on responses from the plane's transponder to give a location for the plane. The plane also turns at the weak centre-point between the two primary radars.
9:07 The Flytecomm video (http://irvingshapiro.tripod.com/cgi-bin/Flight_93/crashother.avi) shows Flight 77 reappearing again and flying onwards to the west. The presence of this plane was confirmed by Col. Alan Scott at the 2nd hearing of the Commission (9-11 commission hearing, 23rd May 2003 (http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm)). It still appears to be in the air after 10:00.
(Time not available) Once again the plane exploits vulnerabilities in the radar coverage to avoid being shot down as it enters restricted D.C. air space. Dulles controllers raise the alarm that an unidentified plane is approaching Washington at about 9:29 (Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node&contentId=A32597-2001Nov2), Nov 3, 2001)
9:37 The official time that Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon
Notice the precision timing involved. We frequently see two or more events happening at the same time, like a magician distracting the audience.

8:14 Flight 11 is hijacked; Flight 175 takes off.
8:39 Flight 11 and Flight 175 nearly meet; Flight 77 deviates from its path.
8:46/47 Flight 11 crashes; Flights 175 and 93 meet each other
8:51 Flight 77 makes last radio contact; Flight 175 deviates from its assigned altitude
...

What happened to the passengers?

Now the tricky part, if plane swapping took place, what happened to the real planes and the passengers? Unfortunately this is where we currently have to resort to educated speculation.

In Operation Northwoods we saw the original "plane swapping" scenario. In this case, the military planners at the pentagon were confident that they could fabricate passengers by creating non-existent IDs for the people on the plane. They were also noticeably confident that no-one would blow the whistle.

However, you can be sure that the 9-11 passengers are not on a desert island somewhere.

Perhaps a number of planes were shot down that day. This is where you get "layers within layers" of the cover-up. Picture this fictional officer speaking: "Listen guys, we accidentally shot down another plane that was conducting an emergency drill today. What really hit the North Tower was a jet that the hijackers chartered from Schenectady County Airport. You understand that the public don't need to know about this, right?"

There are many other possibilities, perhaps the passengers were killed before the plane landed at some remote location.

[Gold9472]

Gold has nothing to fear, we all know he's on the CIA payroll.

They keep him in drum-kits and bongos.

heh.

[PhilosophyGenius]

One of the drill practiced before 9/11, along side hijacked planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon, were shoot downs of passenger planes over the Atlantic. So that could be one possible scenario.

[Gold9472]

CIA you say? So Gold, you hiring?

No. Can I ask a question? Are you trying to refer people to team8 because you believe in the "Hologram/CGI" theory?

[Ignatius Riley]

One of the drill practiced before 9/11, along side hijacked planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon, were shoot downs of passenger planes over the Atlantic. So that could be one possible scenario.

Good catch!

[Ignatius Riley]

No. Can I ask a question? Are you trying to refer people to team8 because you believe in the "Hologram/CGI" theory?

I honestly haven't really looked into it. But if you want to talk about it ...

[Gold9472]

I honestly haven't really looked into it. But if you want to talk about it ...

No. I don't waste my time on obvious disinformation.

[Gold9472]

Ooops... I said the "d" word.

[PhilosophyGenius]

Good catch!

Somebiguy posted a CNN story a long while back about saying that on 9/12/01, 3 planes were picked up on Canadian radar headed up towards the North Pole (or whatever that place is called) when all planes were grounded. So could be another possible scenario.

[Ignatius Riley]

Ooops... I said the "d" word.

Team8plus.org is part of a disinformation campaign? Don't think so. Read over that timeline they've come up with. Some vital stuff there.

[Ignatius Riley]

Boeing is a major player in the military industry complex, which you and I have both fingered as having benefited from 911. Would Boeing donate some old, outdated planes to be used as drones for the operation? Maybe United or American Airlines would surrender to the military an old passenger jet that had been stripped and could be used for hauling cargo, yeah, a cargo of explosives. Said jet resembles or is actually a Boeing passenger jumbo-jet.

This isn't much of a stretch at all really. The donations could be made unknowingly. Hell, who is to say that the military hasn't been sitting on said planes for years awaiting the exercises taking place on or around 9/11? Who is to say they don't right now still have a fleet of outdated passenger and military planes to be used for future exercises.

[Gold9472]

Team8plus.org is part of a disinformation campaign? Don't think so. Read over that timeline they've come up with. Some vital stuff there.

Nico Haupt and I don't get along. Nico Haupt has done more to hurt the movement than a lot of people. The idea that planes didn't strike the towers on 9/11 is absurd. Absolutely absurd. I won't even entertain it, nor will I link to their site because of it.

[Ignatius Riley]

Nico Haupt and I don't get along. Nico Haupt has done more to hurt the movement than a lot of people. The idea that planes didn't strike the towers on 9/11 is absurd. Absolutely absurd. I won't even entertain it, nor will I link to their site because of it.

So you win. Planes hit the towers. Drones. Outdated models of Boeing passenger jumbo jets loaded with explosives were remote controlled into wtc 1 and 2. In the timeline I posted, Team8plus does not assert otherwise.

In fact, I think it argues that a plane of some form or fashion, a drone, perhaps an old military jet of some make, hit the Pentagon.

[Gold9472]

So you win. Planes hit the towers. Drones. Outdated models of Boeing passenger jumbo jets loaded with explosives were remote controlled into wtc 1 and 2. In the timeline I posted, Team8plus does not assert otherwise.

In fact, I think it argues that a plane of some form or fashion, a drone, perhaps an old military jet of some make, hit the Pentagon.

What about ewing2001? The founder of Team8?

[Gold9472]

Nico may very well have contributed something to the movement at one time or another. He's mentioned in "A New Pearl Harbor". However, I want nothing to do with his site, or him. Nothing against you.

[Ignatius Riley]

Somebiguy posted a CNN story a long while back about saying that on 9/12/01, 3 planes were picked up on Canadian radar headed up towards the North Pole (or whatever that place is called) when all planes were grounded. So could be another possible scenario.

Yet another day-of report that the establishment media opted not to thoroughly investigate!

Keep diggin' Genius, you are sure to hit paydirt soon.

[Ignatius Riley]

Nico may very well have contributed something to the movement at one time or another. He's mentioned in "A New Pearl Harbor". However, I want nothing to do with his site, or him. Nothing against you.

So be it, brother. In the end we are all in the same boat. We just paddle in different directions when a wave approaches.

[Gold9472]

So be it, brother. In the end we are all in the same boat. We just paddle in different directions when a wave approaches.

Yeah, but I like teamwork. Others do not.

[Ignatius Riley]

Enough abstractions. What happened?

[Gold9472]

With regards to Nico? I'd rather not get into it. It's not hard to find his "work".

[Ignatius Riley]

You cats know what Hunter S. Thompson was working on when he was suicided? Before he died, he advertised to friends and colleagues that he had indisputable evidence that wtc 1, 2, and 7 were brought down by controlled demolition. Shortly before he died, he told friends he had been threatened with being "suicided."

Thompson's book on 911, surely being trumpeted by the Rolling Stone and other mainstream publications, would have sold millions. It would have made best-seller lists. It would have been, perhaps, his most ambitious work to date.

[Gold9472]

Ask the "Good Doctor HST (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/member.php?u=23)".

[Ignatius Riley]

I'm truly starting to dig your board.

So what did happen to the good doctor?

[Gold9472]

I'm truly starting to dig your board.

So what did happen to the good doctor?

He's not here... he was here earlier.

[Ignatius Riley]

Yeah, I'm acting like I'm not wierded out. I will say, though, that an explanation would be appreciated.

[Gold9472]

He's a guy who's been following me around for a couple of years. He's always had the name Good Doctor HST, so he's kept it. Even before HST committed "suicide".

[Ignatius Riley]

Thanx. Would definitely like to talk to him. Get his take on it. What's yours?

[Gold9472]

Didn't really look into it.

[Gold9472]

I'm sure, however, that if you did a search for Hunter Thompson, you will get a fair share of ariticles here.

[Gold9472]

Here you go...

http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=769

Alexander Pope in a prose convertible

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2FArticleNews%2F TPStory%2FLAC%2F20050226%2FHUNTER26%2FTPFocus%2F&ord=3023863&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false

By PAUL WILLIAM ROBERTS
Saturday, February 26, 2005, Page F9

Hunter telephoned me on Feb. 19, the night before his death. He sounded scared. It wasn't always easy to understand what he said, particularly over the phone, he mumbled, yet when there was something he really wanted you to understand, you did. He'd been working on a story about the World Trade Center attacks and had stumbled across what he felt was hard evidence showing the towers had been brought down not by the airplanes that flew into them but by explosive charges set off in their foundations. Now he thought someone was out to stop him publishing it: "They're gonna make it look like suicide," he said. "I know how these bastards think . . ."

[PhilosophyGenius]

Question:
There is ample evidence that 9/11 was carried out on behalf of the "New World Order" as to create a one world government. The Bush Crime Family and others in this Administration (and govnt in general) have direct links to the Nazi party by way of Secret Societies and blood line. Now some people say Israel had some involvement in 9/11 and it's a fact that our govnt will protect and serve Israel at all costs.

My question is this: Taking the extermiation of the Jews into account during WWII, how do the Jews fit into the NWO?

[Ignatius Riley]

Right now Israel is holding roughly 250,000 American soldiers hostage. Whenever Israel wants a war with Iran, it gets it, and gets to fight it with American soldiers. So needless to say, Israel got exactly what it wanted.

Though I can't give specifics, it does appear that a flurry of Mossad agents were trailing the patsy hijackers here immediately prior to the operation. Details would be nice and perhaps the subject of furure research.

As for the role of Zionism, one should remain skeptical of the alleged extent that ideology played in the staged attacks. These guys are motivated by greed, pure and simple. The golden rule applies at all times. The golden rule: he who has the gold rules. A certain jewish elite who control large-scale banking schemes, dominate money markets and basically own the majority of the capital the world over, we should refer to these cats simply as multinational oligarchs, are in league with our domestic oligarchs and use war/terror to manipulate markets, control population numbers, keep nonwhites basically enslaved, funnel wealth into their coffers, and maintain their stranglehold of control on global economic affairs. Some of these guys may be Zionists. Most are total sociopaths with no rigid belief system aside from one that justifies their unchecked greed.

In other words, when looking for motive, look for dollar signs, not bible verse. The jewish rabble means little to them. They will kill whites, jews, arabs, Blacks, anyone it takes to continue the grand theft of the world's capital and resources. They are racist. They are xenophobic. They are elitist. But beyond all that, they are greedy.

Reminds me of a verse from one of my favorite bands:

"To the fucking rich man all poor people look the same."

[PhilosophyGenius]

Yeah, I realize. But what I'm sayin is the pieces of the puzzle don't seem to add up in that the Bush Crime Family, Skull & Bones, and others in the elite are all strongly pro-Israel (and vise-versa), even though the NWO and Nazism are directly linked. Also, it appears that there are Jewish people (perhaps Zionists) who are part of the NWO. Having said that, I'm thinking, "Why would the Jews want to work with people who are closely linked to the Nazi Part? And why would the global elite want to work with the Jews after what they supported in WWII?"

But maybe the answer is in plain site like what you said....greed. I suppose when your dealing with billion upon billons (or trillions) of dollars, you'd be more that willing to forget certain aspects of history.

[Partridge]

Question: I remember once hearing (not sure where, possibly Alex Jones, possibly Barrie Zwicker, possibly someone else) that the odds of everything coming together co-incidently on 9-11 were the same as a person doing the Canadian lottery twice in their entire lives and winng both times.

Anyone know what the source for this analysis is?

[bandy]

Hi,

I would like to ask an obvious newbie-to-conspiracy-theory question concerning the evidence for wtc demolition and coverup and the international reception of 911. That is why is there so little comment or response from interests hostile to the US on the subject? For example, Iran? True, madcap, murderer President Ahmadinejad recently said in his letter to Bush that there must have been infiltration of the security agencies at "the highest levels" for 911 to have happened. But why so late (and indirect)?

It is said that "Republican interests" own 90% of the media in the US and that this accounts for the blanket denial of the issue. But what of the remaining 10%? And foreign media? Why shouldn't the French feel free to comment with scientific disinterest on any evidence available, let alone the Chinese etc?

Does Republican interest extend so far? Even given the extent of Republican power, does it follow that the most sinister covert activities by a pathological cabal get the support of every faction automatically, as though all their interests could coincide to be so narrow and inane?

Then there are professional bodies such civil engineering institutes worldwide. Why should they have anyone else's interests in mind when studying this most spectacular and iconic collision from a professional standpoint?

[Ignatius Riley]

Gold might back me on this one, but international leaders will not come forward for two reasons (and this is speculation on my behalf).


1) How they will be received by the American media. Imagine if Iran did come out and say "911 was an inside job." Not only would the American media portray the Iranian leader as totally insane, which it is trying to do right now anyway, but insane and buidling a nuke program.

Timing is everything. Gold said they wait until their interests are best served by revealing such beliefs and then do so. This is largely accurate. He might also tell you that various international figureheads actually have come forward and said essentially that 911 was an inside job, ie India, Venezuela and now Iran.

For the sake of brevity I will stop there and change courses.

2) Many of the oligarchs in power in these countries are busy hiding their own corruption and recognize that blowing the whistle on 911 might blow the lid off a corrupt global economy and expose corruption within their own country that would bring about an end to their own comfortable lives and expansive wealth.

My understanding is that in place right now is a vast funnel that drains the world's wealth, capital and resources into the hands of a select few multinational oligarchs. One of the ways this funnel manifests is in multinational investment firms/super banks like Haliburton and the Carlyle Group. To understand the implications of such, look into the relationship between NATO, World Bank, the IMF and these multinational investment firms/super banks. Generally speaking an age-old strategy, going back to the establishment of the concept of material posessions, is in place to keep poor people the world over either enslaved or imprisoned. The myth of 911 plays nicely in that strategy.

Further, if you are asking if members of the cabal and the oligarchs they serve have the influential reach to keep the lid on the hoax, my response is yes, to a certain degree.

Note that throughout the mideast, most moderate Moslems recognize that al-Qaida is no new religion, that instead it is a toolkit for the CIA and privatized intelligence extensions of the CIA. Meanwhile the first book to point out the holes in the official account of what happened on 911 was by a Frenchman. Generally speaking, much of the rest of the world, especially in the German/French/Russian bloc, citizens know that 911 isn't what the cabal packaged it to be. One reason why they don't blow it up is because the public there favors isolationism. They may eventually blow the thing up, but not until they are ready for war with the Cabal,

which, make no joke, will invade your country and kill your people and topple your government before they allow you to strip them of their power.

[PhilosophyGenius]

I think world leaders havnt come forward about 9/11 is because, heck, why should they? They're part of the same system and if they had details or forewarning of the attack then that could mean they were partially in on it too. For instance, assuming Clinton knew al-Qaeda was being tooled by U.S. intel, and he wanted to blast this administration out of the water, do you think he'd come forward saying 9/11 was an inside job? The answer is no because he'd be going down as well. Also, I'm sure you know of the former German Chancelor (or whatever) and the two MI5 agents who say 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush and there's been a total media blackout in the U.S. about that.

[werther]

I'm sure you know of the former German Chancelor (or whatever) and the two MI5 agents who say 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush and there's been a total media blackout in the U.S. about that.

I assume you are talking about Gerhard Schroeder former chancellor of Germany. I am German, though not born there lived there for some time and go at least twice a year. I have never heard this. Not that I am doubting you but could you please post an article or relevant link, I am highly interested.
thanks

[Ignatius Riley]

PG, that would be discredited in a heartbeat. Bush couldn't have orchestrated 911. Why? Because he is a cretin.

Now Cheney on the other hand ...

[Partridge]

I assume you are talking about Gerhard Schroeder former chancellor of Germany. I am German, though not born there lived there for some time and go at least twice a year. I have never heard this. Not that I am doubting you but could you please post an article or relevant link, I am highly interested.
thanks
I think he's talking abourt Andreas Von Bulow (sp?), who is an ex-technology minister in Germany.

You can see an interview with him (and Michael Meacher, former UK Environment Minister under Blair) in the YBBS Video Collection (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/videos1.htm#911) - its' called '911: Attack or Godsend' (about 12th down the 911 list).

[PhilosophyGenius]

Pardon me, I meant the ex Minister as Partidge so kindly pointed out.

[JesusOverIsrael]

http://jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com/2006/04/fighting-fire-with-fire-deception-of-9.html

i know this is very controversial, but i hold to it:
Sunday, April 30, 2006

FIGHTING FIRE WITH FIRE: The Deception of 9-11 & the Deception of Islam




http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3543/1659/400/9-11.1.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3543/1659/1600/9-11.1.jpg)

Friends,

my final thoughts about 9-11. i have spent enormous amounts of time and emotional energy over the last two years thinking about this horrible event. i am convinced that the US govt. was complicit in the attacks. the only question that has vexed me is why God would allow them to use this level of deception in order to attack Islam. my conclusion is that the reason is rooted in islam's efforts to usurp Isaac's blessing by claiming that Ishmael was Abraham's main son. since Islam uses deceit in twisting and distorting essential Biblical texts, God has authorized the United States, the most powerful Christian country on earth, to attack Islam through deceit and treachery. it is called measure for measure and it is God's favourite way to discipline His world:

Matthew 7:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=2&version=31&context=verse) For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 23:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=32&version=31&context=verse) Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
Mark 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=4&verse=24&version=31&context=verse) "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.
</EM></STRONG>
Luke 6:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=6&verse=38&version=31&context=verse) Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Michael Korn
american-israeliChristian

MAKOM - Menachem Korn Ministries
www.jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com (http://www.jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com)
www.jesusfactorfiction.com (http://www.jesusfactorfiction.com)
www.st911.org (http://www.st911.org)

[JesusOverIsrael]

lest you accuse me of excessive favouritism to israel and/or judeo-christianity, i want to clarify that i oppose judaism as an anti christ religion. however it preserves the true OT texts, as opposed to islam's qu'ran, which hasn't the full qu'rnel of truth.

furthermore please see the following for information on the monstrous behaviour of israeli zionists pursuing their false anti Christ religious "utopia":

http://jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com/2006/01/david-ben-mengele-how-ben-gurion.html

http://jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com/2006/01/heil-herr-haber-jewish-hypocrisy-about.html

http://jesusoverisrael.blogspot.com/2006/01/ofra-haza.html