Couple of questions

[LostInFreeThought]

If this is in the wrong section, my apologies to the staff.

Hi all. Had some diffucluty joining but glad to be here. I've been interested in the "alternative" theories concerning 9/11 for about 2 years now but have not until recently done real research on it. A few days ago I got around to watching the documentary 911: Ripple Effect. Could somebody clear up a few things for me?

1)Most believe Flight 175 was switched with a different plane. So what became of the passengers? I can't recall if this was discussed in the documentary, but I do remember hearing some believe that Flight 93 never crashed, so what happened to Todd Beamer and the other passengers there?

2)Did Bin Laden and his people have ANYTHING to do with the attacks or no?

3)In Fahrenheit 9/11, it's said many family members of the victims of the attacks don't accept the official 9/11 report. While I don't doubt that, does anybody have any unbiased sources to back up that claim?

4)Do you have advice on how to show closed minded people the light so to speak? Such as people who are shown documentaries like Ripple Effect and dismiss the whole thing as "actors" or "propaganda"?

5)Finally, I know very little about what actually happened compared to the more active members here. As I've said, I've just started researching the contradictions from the official 9/11 report. I'll most likely be a lurker for a while since I don't have much of an educated opinion about 9/11. But I'd like to know, what IS the point of anybody protesting in front of the White House for "truth"? What IS the point of trying to get the government to be honest about ANYTHING? Remember, they're the GOVERNMENT, if they don't want to be honest, they don't have to. Are there any members that actually believe that one day they'll admit they had something to do with 9/11, let alone any other cover-up?

[Eckolaker]

1) PLanes may have been switched, its very hard to know for sure. Considering most of the FAA records from the day were destroyed. Which would include radar tracking of those flights and other in the area.

2) Bin Laden was the Patsy, he was a wilful participant in 9/11. To what degree, we a better investigation needs to happen. Currently the FBI can't link him to 9/11 at all.

3) Goldie can answer this one best. He has contact with several family members and first responders.

4) I wouldn't worry too much about those you cant reach. You know the saying "You can lead a horse to water"...It's like when Morpheus says to Neo "I can only show you the door, you are the one that has to walk through it". Many even when shown first hand will utterly deny the truth. They have led their whole lives believing certain things are true. They base their lives on the supossed truths, and in many cases would rather believe the lie because the truth is too hard for them to bare.

5) Well, I suppose it is about exposure. Those who know the truth, need to expose it. We also need to let those people know, that we know what is "really" going on in the world. Ultimately it is up to us to be accountable for exposing the truth. If we stand by idly and allow the assholes to take over the world, then we deserve everything that comes to us.

For me, activism isn't about getting the truth out. For me its primarily two things.

1. Practice what you preach...I tell people I meet everyday to get out and get active, because thats the easiest "legal" recourse we have currently.

2. I don't want to be sitting in some FEMA camp 5 years from now telling people "I told you so" and when asked what I did to stop it all from happening I reply "I posted on the internet about 9/11"

I finally came to the point at which I no longer care who I offend. I have pissed off several people in my family because of what I talk about. Its actually all I talk about, to pretty much everyone. I am relentless in that way, but I refuse to stand by idly.

[AuGmENTor]

Well, I am a first responder, and I don't accept the official story at all. I prolly don't count as my status was strictly voluntary.

[Gold9472]

You count dude.

[Gold9472]

I'll answer these in a minute.

[AuGmENTor]

You count dude.tanx

[Gold9472]

If this is in the wrong section, my apologies to the staff.

Hi all. Had some diffucluty joining but glad to be here. I've been interested in the "alternative" theories concerning 9/11 for about 2 years now but have not until recently done real research on it. A few days ago I got around to watching the documentary 911: Ripple Effect. Could somebody clear up a few things for me?

1)Most believe Flight 175 was switched with a different plane. So what became of the passengers? I can't recall if this was discussed in the documentary, but I do remember hearing some believe that Flight 93 never crashed, so what happened to Todd Beamer and the other passengers there?

The truth is, most do not believe that. There is information that exists that says the real planes were used. There is some information that exists that says otherwise. Although I don't know for certain, I find it best not to speculate on things I can't verify.

2)Did Bin Laden and his people have ANYTHING to do with the attacks or no?

The truth is, I don't know. There is information that exists that suggests, at the very least, he was used as a pawn. There is also information that exists that says in the months prior to 9/11, he was going from mosque to mosque telling people about the upcoming attacks. I just don't know.

3)In Fahrenheit 9/11, it's said many family members of the victims of the attacks don't accept the official 9/11 report. While I don't doubt that, does anybody have any unbiased sources to back up that claim?

To my knowledge, F911 doesn't mention the families at all? I could be mistaken, but I don't remember it. As far as the families go... Bill Doyle (http://www.coalitionof911families.org/), who represents a lot of families, says that about 50% of the families (http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/aj_2006-07-07_clipped.mp3) that he represents think as we do. The families were the ones that originally fought for the creation of the 9/11 Commission. They joined together to form the 9/11 Family Steering Committee. (http://www.911independentcommission.org/) If not for them, the 9/11 Commission would never have been. Some people say that might have been a good thing, but what 9/11 Family Member Lorie Van Auken told me is, at least we now know the Government's side of things. The families that fought for the creation of the Commission, as well as others, have been busy as of late. I suggest you read this (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15114).

4)Do you have advice on how to show closed minded people the light so to speak? Such as people who are shown documentaries like Ripple Effect and dismiss the whole thing as "actors" or "propaganda"?

With regard to 9/11 Ripple Effect, admittedly, I haven't seen it. I do know, however, that the person that made it also has made some questionable things in the past. If I were given a choice, I would probably not promote that film.

5)Finally, I know very little about what actually happened compared to the more active members here. As I've said, I've just started researching the contradictions from the official 9/11 report. I'll most likely be a lurker for a while since I don't have much of an educated opinion about 9/11. But I'd like to know, what IS the point of anybody protesting in front of the White House for "truth"? What IS the point of trying to get the government to be honest about ANYTHING? Remember, they're the GOVERNMENT, if they don't want to be honest, they don't have to. Are there any members that actually believe that one day they'll admit they had something to do with 9/11, let alone any other cover-up?

That's the great thing about hope. It drives us, and gives us the strength to fight the very real situation you described. All I know is, allowing, or orchestrating the attacks of 9/11 is wrong. Period. They need to be held accountable if we want the direction of this country and the world set on a good path.

[LostInFreeThought]

If anybody has an hour and a half of free time and wishes to see the film-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9127706080717077488

[Gold9472]

Sorry that I don't have answers in the conventional sense. It's easier for me to prove a lie than it is to provide an answer to a question.

[Gold9472]

Example...

The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States—and using them as guided missiles—was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11.

p17 - 9/11 Report

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm

In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.

It's amazing the things you forget... That USA Today story came out in April 2004. The 9/11 Report was released in July 2004. This is a BLATANT lie from the 9/11 Commission.

[Gold9472]

I do recommend reading this from front to back, and top to bottom.

Click Here (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project)

[simuvac]

At this point, there are too many "documentaries" out there with grand ideas about 9/11. They run the gambit, connecting 9/11 with everything from secret societies to the origins of Christianity. It's absurd.

Unfortunately, the only way to have a reasonable opinion on matters is to read around, not just 9/11 Truth websites and books but also debunker websites as well. Some ideas, like the No Plane at the Pentagon hoax, still retain much currency in 9/11 Truth circles, even though the evidence contradicts this theory, and raising the theory only provides debunkers with much ammunition.

I don't even recommend one particular author on the subject. Most people begin with the books of David Ray Griffin, which is fair. But even Griffin holds onto some ridiculous theories (i.e., the Pentagon) and some really, really speculative material (i.e., fake cell phone calls and voice morphing technology).

There is one idea that is easy to prove based on solid evidence: the 9/11 Commission Report was a cover-up. Griffin's book Omissions and Distortions is pretty good on this subject. The film 9/11 Press for Truth is excellent. You should begin with these two sources and Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline at cooperativeresearch.org. They may not have a phat soundtrack like Loose Change, but they tend to have more credibility.

There are those in the movement who say simply, "Building 7 is an obvious demolition. What more evidence do you need?" I would say it's still advisable to have talking points other than "Building 7," because you will meet some people who simply reject the CD arguments without discussion. I'm not 100% sure WTC7 was a demolition; I'm at least 90% sure.

Basically, you have to decide for what purpose you want to know more about 9/11. Are you trying to convince others of something, or just yourself? If you are trying to convince others, you should read around and learn more about 9/11 than just the probability of a building collapsing from office furniture fires. If you just want to convince yourself, just take a look at the people in office right now and ask yourself if you would trust them on ANY issue? If you are a diehard Republican and can't accept the POSSIBILITY that the neocons were involved with 9/11, then read around... lots. Otherwise, I think some of the answers are pretty obvious, and some of the answers we will never know.

[simuvac]

To my knowledge, F911 doesn't mention the families at all? I could be mistaken, but I don't remember it.

Actually, Jon, it mentions at least two family members, Carol Ashley and a Mrs. Dillard, I think. I was just watching it. Moore does show how Bush tried to avoid a commission, and how unprecedented that was. He also shows Kean saying something about the delays getting documents from the White House.

Moore's theory seems to be that Bush avoided the investigation because Saudi Arabia was somehow involved.

[Gold9472]

Well, then that's one up on me. I just remember Condoleezza Rice's testimony, and the 7 minutes.

[krsjuan87]

1) PLanes may have been switched, its very hard to know for sure. Considering most of the FAA records from the day were destroyed. Which would include radar tracking of those flights and other in the area.

2) Bin Laden was the Patsy, he was a wilful participant in 9/11. To what degree, we a better investigation needs to happen. Currently the FBI can't link him to 9/11 at all.

3) Goldie can answer this one best. He has contact with several family members and first responders.

4) I wouldn't worry too much about those you cant reach. You know the saying "You can lead a horse to water"...It's like when Morpheus says to Neo "I can only show you the door, you are the one that has to walk through it". Many even when shown first hand will utterly deny the truth. They have led their whole lives believing certain things are true. They base their lives on the supossed truths, and in many cases would rather believe the lie because the truth is too hard for them to bare.

5) Well, I suppose it is about exposure. Those who know the truth, need to expose it. We also need to let those people know, that we know what is "really" going on in the world. Ultimately it is up to us to be accountable for exposing the truth. If we stand by idly and allow the assholes to take over the world, then we deserve everything that comes to us.

For me, activism isn't about getting the truth out. For me its primarily two things.

1. Practice what you preach...I tell people I meet everyday to get out and get active, because thats the easiest "legal" recourse we have currently.

2. I don't want to be sitting in some FEMA camp 5 years from now telling people "I told you so" and when asked what I did to stop it all from happening I reply "I posted on the internet about 9/11"

I finally came to the point at which I no longer care who I offend. I have pissed off several people in my family because of what I talk about. Its actually all I talk about, to pretty much everyone. I am relentless in that way, but I refuse to stand by idly.

dude that is awesome....i have a lot of freinds and a few wont even talk about this stuff and even though i have a big heart and care about them all very much i really find it hard to spend time with people who still believe the official story or think that even if the government had something to do with it that it won't effect them....fuck fema camps.....

at the very least why is it called terrorism when "they" kill 3000 of our people but somehow what we are doing in the middle east isnt terrorism?!....lets see we have killed at least 5000 innocent in afghanastan and god knows how many innocent in iraq....and we are somehow in the right?!?!? that alone is bullshit and even if we pull out tomorrow and the major curropt players in our government and corp elite were to stop sponsering terror themselves we now would face a much much greater threat from genuine terrorism from middle easterners from our actions in the "war on terror".....so any way you want to look at it they fucked us...they are fucking us and they apperently will continue to fuck us prob till long after i am dead....thanks guys i'm glad my taxes are paying to fuck myself and my family straight up the old arsehole....god i hate fascism

[krsjuan87]

Well, I am a first responder, and I don't accept the official story at all. I prolly don't count as my status was strictly voluntary.

you count