Breaking NEWS: Vatican archives opened to the public!!!

[Se7en]

This is what I would love to see. Relics, files, statues etc etc...

I would be interested to see if they have any proof of Jesus, or stuff of the Devil. Maybe more interesting, to some on this BB, would be the financial history of the Vatican. Who they backed, and what groups they gave money to.


Any thoughts on the subject?

[ScottyAH]

Hell must be freezing over...for them to release all they're records. thats ludicris and not the rapper either

[Gold9472]

This is what I would love to see. Relics, files, statues etc etc...

I would be interested to see if they have any proof of Jesus, or stuff of the Devil. Maybe more interesting, to some on this BB, would be the financial history of the Vatican. Who they backed, and what groups they gave money to.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Plenty... I feel that if you're going to have millions upon millions of people follow a religion, then they should have the RIGHT to know what it is they're following. Instead, people are forced to read books like this...

http://home.comcast.net/~gold9472/davinci.gif

Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...

The "Savior" might have had children.

[ScottyAH]

you got any links on this subject...

[Se7en]

Plenty... I feel that if you're going to have millions upon millions of people follow a religion, then they should have the RIGHT to know what it is they're following. Instead, people are forced to read books like this...

http://home.comcast.net/%7Egold9472/davinci.gif

Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...

The "Savior" might have had children.

Are the millions of people also the same ones who should have access to Goverment records? Seems like both have a lot to hide. Difference is, the Vatican isn't holding back due to National Security.

[Gold9472]

Are the millions of people also the same ones who should have access to Goverment records? Seems like both have a lot to hide. Difference is, the Vatican isn't holding back due to National Security.

Right... EXACTLY... we KNOW there are things the church is hiding. Why the FUCK would a Church have reason to hide ANYTHING?!?!

[danceyogamom]

Plenty... I feel that if you're going to have millions upon millions of people follow a religion, then they should have the RIGHT to know what it is they're following. Instead, people are forced to read books like this...

http://home.comcast.net/~gold9472/davinci.gif

Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...

The "Savior" might have had children.

the virgin mary had children other than Jesus. the book of thomas was intentionally left out because it didn't quite fit in. Every tribe had their own arc of the covenant, and the greek was intentionally mis-translated because having one arc worked better for the writers of the time ...

the minutia of the bible (which is what most dogma is based on) is so far from any kind of historical reality its laughable ...

its also been changed so many times - reinterpreted so very differently based on what was currently happening with politics, society etc that I'm not sure much of it would have meaning to our society now ...

[danceyogamom]

Are the millions of people also the same ones who should have access to Goverment records? Seems like both have a lot to hide. Difference is, the Vatican isn't holding back due to National Security.

They would dispute that ... Vatican City *is* its own country

[Gold9472]

In regards to "National Security"...

If matters of National Security have information related to corrupt elected officials, who decides what happens to those officials? Do they get off scott-free because the public can't know the information because it has matters of National Security in it? Are there laws or courts for cases like this? Kind of like a National Security Tribunal?

If the answer to that question is that elected officials get off scott-free because it's matters of National Security, then that means elected officials are above the law. That is not the purpose of the Constitution or National Security. There should always be accountability.

And in regards to the Church, they should OPENLY share anything regarding Christ or their beliefs. How dare they withhold imformation which might change people's points of view... maybe even for the better? Who does it serve to keep it secret?

[ScottyAH]

Plenty... I feel that if you're going to have millions upon millions of people follow a religion, then they should have the RIGHT to know what it is they're following. Instead, people are forced to read books like this...

http://home.comcast.net/~gold9472/davinci.gif

Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...

The "Savior" might have had children.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0865715408.01.THUMBZZZ.jpg
Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...
My thoughts too

[God]

the virgin mary had children other than Jesus. the book of thomas was intentionally left out because it didn't quite fit in. Every tribe had their own arc of the covenant, and the greek was intentionally mis-translated because having one arc worked better for the writers of the time ...

the minutia of the bible (which is what most dogma is based on) is so far from any kind of historical reality its laughable ...

its also been changed so many times - reinterpreted so very differently based on what was currently happening with politics, society etc that I'm not sure much of it would have meaning to our society now ...

Move along... there's nothing to see here... :rolleyes:

[danceyogamom]

In regards to "National Security"...

If matters of National Security have information related to corrupt elected officials, who decides what happens to those officials? Do they get off scott-free because the public can't know the information because it has matters of National Security in it? Are there laws or courts for cases like this? Kind of like a National Security Tribunal?

If the answer to that question is that elected officials get off scott-free because it's matters of National Security, then that means elected officials are above the law. That is not the purpose of the Constitution or National Security. There should always be accountability.

And in regards to the Church, they should OPENLY share anything regarding Christ or their beliefs. How dare they withhold imformation which might change people's points of view... maybe even for the better? Who does it serve to keep it secret?

I was being sarcastic ... it serves the church. information = power = the masses (ha ha ha) thinking for themselves = no one going to church = no donations

[Gold9472]

I was being sarcastic ... it serves the church. information = power = the masses (ha ha ha) thinking for themselves = no one going to church = no donations

I know... that's something I wrote a long time ago actually... it was just relevant to the conversation...

[Gold9472]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0865715408.01.THUMBZZZ.jpg
Not everything in that book is true, but it certainly is VERY interesting...
My thoughts too

Actually, everything in that book is referenceable fact. The conclusions are his own, and people may argue those conclusions, but not convincingly. At least not to me.

[danceyogamom]

I know... that's something I wrote a long time ago actually... it was just relevant to the conversation...

it is relevant ... I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I actually believed the vatican had the right to hide information

[Gold9472]

And Scott... not everything is about 9/11... :D

[Gold9472]

it is relevant ... I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I actually believed the vatican had the right to hide information

You're not going to say I'm trying to censor you are you? :(:D

[danceyogamom]

Move along... there's nothing to see here... :rolleyes:

oh God ... don't tell me you approved this?

*sigh* I am so disappointed

[Se7en]

Interesting factoid - The translators of the Gospels and other books of the Bible, only receive 1 in 3 pages out of the text, and it is spread across The Jews, Catholics, and one other group. Keeps one group from knowing too much, and tries to perfect its translation.

I was raised Catholic, but am not active. I have my own idea of a 'higher power', but Science is continually making religious people rethink their positions. 50 years ago, the Church was the UTMOST authority. Nowadays, there have been so many closings of churches, Catholics in Mass/NH are almost gone.

[God]

oh God ... don't tell me you approved this?

*sigh* I am so disappointed

Be quiet my minion!!! SILENCE!!! You will do as I say and not as you do.

[danceyogamom]

Be quiet my minion!!! SILENCE!!! You will do as I say and not as you do.

*pouty look*

I'm sorry God ... I didn't mean it. Please don't send me back to hell ... I'm going to church on Wednesday, I promise. Ashes and everything. I'm even taking the kids!

btw, any good lenten suggestions?

[God]

*pouty look*

I'm sorry God ... I didn't mean it. Please don't send me back to hell ... I'm going to church on Wednesday, I promise. Ashes and everything. I'm even taking the kids!

btw, any good lenten suggestions?

YOU FORGET... I am a jewish oriented God. What, in all that is holy, is "lenten"?

[Se7en]

YOU FORGET... I am a jewish oriented God. What, in all that is holy, is "lenten"?

Lent is yet another drag out guilt trip. The ashes are burnt Palm trees, and the ashes are put onto the person's head. Meant to symbolize Jesus's death and resurrection. People give something up for lent. For example, stop smoking, or for the religious people out there, something holy. People also don't eat meat on Fridays.

[danceyogamom]

YOU FORGET... I am a jewish oriented God. What, in all that is holy, is "lenten"?

well God ... father of the son, pinnacle of the holy trinity ...

this upcoming Wednesday is Ash Wednesday ... the first day of lent. 40 days of preparation for holy week (passover, good friday Easter Sunday)

its a time of fasting, pennence, reflection ... typically Catholics give something up during that time ...

[Gold9472]

well God ... father of the son, pinnacle of the holy trinity ...

this upcoming Wednesday is Ash Wednesday ... the first day of lent. 40 days of preparation for holy week (passover, good friday Easter Sunday)

its a time of fasting, pennence, reflection ... typically Catholics give something up during that time ...

What do they give up?

[Nowhereman]

Anybody see The Last Temptation of Christ? I liked it alot better than The Passion of Christ because it explored other possible realities of Jesus. When Jesus was on the Cross he imagined what it would have been like to get married and have a family. In the end he still died on the cross.

[Gold9472]

Anybody see The Last Temptation of Christ? I liked it alot better than The Passion of Christ because it explored other possible realities of Jesus. When Jesus was on the Cross he imagined what it would have been like to get married and have a family. In the end he still died on the cross.

I just had this discussion with someone today at work... we were talking about the DaVinci Code, etc... That was a good movie...

[Gold9472]

I remember when "The Last Temptation of Christ" came out... all of the religious zealots were in an uproar over that movie, just like "Passion Of The Christ".

[danceyogamom]

What do they give up?

anything that is supposed to remind you of sacrafice.

one year I gave up chocolate ... one year I went vegan ...

I stopped giving things up a few years ago, and started trying to be more proactive ... like doing volunteer work etc ...

but I haven't been so good about that since having children

[danceyogamom]

Anybody see The Last Temptation of Christ? I liked it alot better than The Passion of Christ because it explored other possible realities of Jesus. When Jesus was on the Cross he imagined what it would have been like to get married and have a family. In the end he still died on the cross.

I loved that movie.

Christ was supposed to be human ... was supposed to be capable of falling prey to the same temptations mankind does ... that is why the sacrafice is such a big deal.

I thought the movie captured that brilliantly.

[Gold9472]

BTW... I just found out today that Pope John Paul I was assassinated by the Cardinals of the day because he was going to make radical changes in the Church.

[Gold9472]

Here's an interesting link about the death of Pope John Paul I...

Click Here (http://www.tldm.org/news3/johnpaulI.htm)

[Nowhereman]

I loved that movie.

Christ was supposed to be human ... was supposed to be capable of falling prey to the same temptations mankind does ... that is why the sacrafice is such a big deal.

I thought the movie captured that brilliantly.


Compared to "The Passion" which to me just showed Jesus getting the crap beaten out of him. :eek:

[danceyogamom]

Compared to "The Passion" which to me just showed Jesus getting the crap beaten out of him. :eek:

I have yet to see the passion ...

I heard it was extremely anti-sementic (sp?) (and not in the rome against the jews kind of way), and I was put off by that.

[Gold9472]

I have yet to see the passion ...

I heard it was extremely anti-sementic (sp?) (and not in the rome against the jews kind of way), and I was put off by that.

It showed that the Jews asked for his death, etc...

[danceyogamom]

It showed that the Jews asked for his death, etc...

ok ... everything I had heard about it made it sound like the movie was an artistic interpretation that would have been common in the middle ages ... and I have no desire to see that.

[JFK]

http://www.eonline.com/Features/Live/Godzilla/Qa/Devlin/Images/3b.devlin.jpg
Muhahaha fools!! Pindar is your one and only god!

[danceyogamom]

http://www.eonline.com/Features/Live/Godzilla/Qa/Devlin/Images/3b.devlin.jpg

Muhahaha fools!! Pindar is your one and only god!





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA .....

all hail Pindar!

[Gold9472]

http://www.eonline.com/Features/Live/Godzilla/Qa/Devlin/Images/3b.devlin.jpg
Muhahaha fools!! Pindar is your one and only god!


Tell us about the "Knights Of Templar"...

[JFK]

Tell us about the "Knights Of Templar"...

The Knights Templar were a monastic military order formed at the end of the First Crusade with the mandate of protecting Christian pilgrims on route to the Holy Land. In this sense they were the first of the Warrior Monks. The Templars fought along side King Richard I (Richard The Lion Hearted) and other Crusaders in the battles for the Holy Lands. Within two centuries they had become powerful enough to defy all but the Papal throne. Feared as warriors, respected for their charity and sought out for their wealth, there is no doubt that the Templar knights were the key players of the monastic fighting Orders (Hired Killers For The Church :D) Templars essentially invented banking, as we know it. The church forbade the lending of money for interest, which they called usury. The Templars, being the clever sort they were, changed the manner in which loans were paid and were able to skirt the issue and finance even kings. The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.

They believed that Jeesus had conceived three children with Mary Magdalene, who moved to France after the crucifixion. Their progeny married into royalty; hence, there existed members of the French nobility who had divine blood in their veins. The Knights Templar eventually dedicated themselves to protecting the lives of these descendants of Jesus, the Merovingians.



Basically they started as killers for the church, they gained to much power and money, church in return got scared. Churched destoryed them, or did they?

[Uber Commandante]

well God ... father of the son, pinnacle of the holy trinity ...

this upcoming Wednesday is Ash Wednesday ... the first day of lent. 40 days of preparation for holy week (passover, good friday Easter Sunday)

its a time of fasting, pennence, reflection ... typically Catholics give something up during that time ...

Danceyogamom - another intersting factoid. Jesus wasn't even declared 'God' until the Council of Nicea sometime around 330 AD - obviosly 330 years AFTER the death of Jesus. The council convened because of a growing faction in the church regarding the origins of Jesus (God or Human). It was at that point that someone must have said "Wait a minute! I've got it it! Like, maybe he was THREE dudes". And then all was well in the soul of Christiandom,

[danceyogamom]

Danceyogamom - another intersting factoid. Jesus wasn't even declared 'God' until the Council of Nicea sometime around 330 AD - obviosly 330 years AFTER the death of Jesus. The council convened because of a growing faction in the church regarding the origins of Jesus (God or Human). It was at that point that someone must have said "Wait a minute! I've got it it! Like, maybe he was THREE dudes". And then all was well in the soul of Christiandom,

yeah ... the trinity thing always eluded me ...

and I thought the entire point of the sacrafice was that Jesus *was* human ...

[Uber Commandante]

Danceyogamom - another intersting factoid. Jesus wasn't even declared 'God' until the Council of Nicea sometime around 330 AD - obviosly 330 years AFTER the death of Jesus. The council convened because of a growing faction in the church regarding the origins of Jesus (God or Human). It was at that point that someone must have said "Wait a minute! I've got it it! Like, maybe he was THREE dudes". And then all was well in the soul of Christiandom,


Allright, sorry - now I've got meself started :

You know, the best thing about Christianity is that Hitler could be in Heaven and Ghandi would be in Hell because its not about how you lived your life, its just about the last thing you manage to say before death that gets you inthe door; "Father forgive me.." Geez - I wish MY parents had been that easy.....

And just for the record - I'm not a christian hater, just a disliker of intolerance in the name of love, which seems to be what christianity is evolving into.

[Gold9472]

Danceyogamom - another intersting factoid. Jesus wasn't even declared 'God' until the Council of Nicea sometime around 330 AD - obviosly 330 years AFTER the death of Jesus. The council convened because of a growing faction in the church regarding the origins of Jesus (God or Human). It was at that point that someone must have said "Wait a minute! I've got it it! Like, maybe he was THREE dudes". And then all was well in the soul of Christiandom,

The Father, The Son, And The Holy Ghost... what the hell were they smoking? That's an awfully convenient description for something, 330 AD... NEVER having met, or seen the actual Jesus.

[Uber Commandante]

yeah ... the trinity thing always eluded me ...

and I thought the entire point of the sacrafice was that Jesus *was* human ...

Same here. In fact, I think that making Jesus "God" turns Jesus' teachings upside down. One of the things Jesus taught was "The Kingdom of God is within you" - in my mind meaning that you don't have to look externally for spirituality or salvation. However, that way of thinking doens't work well for church "leaders" looking to consolidate a power base. Instead, they turn his words upside down, and hide opposing documents for millienia so that the way to the kingdom of God is through the church leaders, and not ones self.

[danceyogamom]

The Father, The Son, And The Holy Ghost... what the hell were they smoking? That's an awfully convenient description for something, 330 AD... NEVER having met, or seen the actual Jesus.

well ... in their meager little brains, the holy spirit (I've always hated the ghost reference) was what actually impregnated Mary ... Since sex is evil, and Mary was born without sin and had to beget Jesus by some other means ...

making it God the father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the impregnator (holy sprirt)

I'm not saying it makes any real sense ... its just a convenient way to have Mary get pregnant by God without any actual contact - and still have it be God's baby

(and when you put it that way, it sounds rather soap opera-ish)

[danceyogamom]

Allright, sorry - now I've got meself started :

You know, the best thing about Christianity is that Hitler could be in Heaven and Ghandi would be in Hell because its not about how you lived your life, its just about the last thing you manage to say before death that gets you inthe door; "Father forgive me.." Geez - I wish MY parents had been that easy.....

And just for the record - I'm not a christian hater, just a disliker of intolerance in the name of love, which seems to be what christianity is evolving into.

I agree. Christians are horrible hypocrits (and I am a reasonably active Christian) but then again, I feel that is part of the human condition. I think you would find that in any large group of people practicing a similar belief (be it religion, politics, etc)

The concept of ongoing forgiveness is one I appreciate ... the whole prodigal son thing. But I must admit I don't buy into the "can't get into heaven unless you accept Jesus as your savior" God comes in many forms ... and he is bigger than all of us - and is able to see worship and acceptance in all forms. the rest of the crap is human Dogma -

and more excuses for us to hate each other.

Did you ever read the Onion's initial response to 9/11? I think of that, often. Its one of the best religious writings I've ever read.

[Gold9472]

well ... in their meager little brains, the holy spirit (I've always hated the ghost reference) was what actually impregnated Mary ... Since sex is evil, and Mary was born without sin and had to beget Jesus by some other means ...

making it God the father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the impregnator (holy sprirt)

I'm not saying it makes any real sense ... its just a convenient way to have Mary get pregnant by God without any actual contact - and still have it be God's baby

(and when you put it that way, it sounds rather soap opera-ish)

:D "As the bible turns..." In today's story, Mary finds out that she's pregnant, but much to her surprise... Joseph is NOT the father... deh deh DEH.....

[danceyogamom]

:D "As the bible turns..." In today's story, Mary finds out that she's pregnant, but much to her surprise... Joseph is NOT the father... deh deh DEH.....

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .....that is too funny!

[Nowhereman]

I grew up Christian but only go to Church at Weddings and Funerals these day. Part of it has to do with being fed up with how the Church covered up the Molestations.

I should say that it's not just the Christians that have problems. We all know the problems with The Religion Peace(TM) ISLAM :rolleyes: . Here is a nice article about the sicker sides of Judaism http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/.

[Gold9472]

I grew up Christian but only go to Church at Weddings and Funerals these day. Part of it has to do with being fed up with how the Church covered up the Molestations.

I should say that it's not just the Christians that have problems. We all know the problems with The Religion Peace(TM) ISLAM :rolleyes: . Here is a nice article about the sicker sides of Judaism http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/.

Oh man... that's disgusting... he obviously has herpes, and when he "sucks" the blood USING HIS MOUTH, which is disgusting to begin with, he passes it on to the babies. Prick. I can hear him now... "I'm a Rabbi... I'm above herpes"...

[danceyogamom]

I grew up Christian but only go to Church at Weddings and Funerals these day. Part of it has to do with being fed up with how the Church covered up the Molestations.

I should say that it's not just the Christians that have problems. We all know the problems with The Religion Peace(TM) ISLAM :rolleyes: . Here is a nice article about the sicker sides of Judaism http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/.

I understand that a lot of religious traditions originated due to the needs of society at the time ... but I don't see why anyone in this day and age would need to hold onto the practice of actually sucking on a baby's open wound.

there is *no* way I would have allowed that to happen to my son.

none of those parents were reported as being orthodox ... what's wrong with them?!? babies aren't born with any kind of useful immune system!!!!

*grrr*

[Gold9472]

The Knights Templar were a monastic military order formed at the end of the First Crusade with the mandate of protecting Christian pilgrims on route to the Holy Land. In this sense they were the first of the Warrior Monks. The Templars fought along side King Richard I (Richard The Lion Hearted) and other Crusaders in the battles for the Holy Lands. Within two centuries they had become powerful enough to defy all but the Papal throne. Feared as warriors, respected for their charity and sought out for their wealth, there is no doubt that the Templar knights were the key players of the monastic fighting Orders (Hired Killers For The Church :D) Templars essentially invented banking, as we know it. The church forbade the lending of money for interest, which they called usury. The Templars, being the clever sort they were, changed the manner in which loans were paid and were able to skirt the issue and finance even kings. The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.

They believed that Jeesus had conceived three children with Mary Magdalene, who moved to France after the crucifixion. Their progeny married into royalty; hence, there existed members of the French nobility who had divine blood in their veins. The Knights Templar eventually dedicated themselves to protecting the lives of these descendants of Jesus, the Merovingians.

Basically they started as killers for the church, they gained to much power and money, church in return got scared. Churched destoryed them, or did they?

Who are believed to be Christ's decendents today?

[danceyogamom]

The Knights Templar were a monastic military order formed at the end of the First Crusade with the mandate of protecting Christian pilgrims on route to the Holy Land. In this sense they were the first of the Warrior Monks. The Templars fought along side King Richard I (Richard The Lion Hearted) and other Crusaders in the battles for the Holy Lands. Within two centuries they had become powerful enough to defy all but the Papal throne. Feared as warriors, respected for their charity and sought out for their wealth, there is no doubt that the Templar knights were the key players of the monastic fighting Orders (Hired Killers For The Church :D) Templars essentially invented banking, as we know it. The church forbade the lending of money for interest, which they called usury. The Templars, being the clever sort they were, changed the manner in which loans were paid and were able to skirt the issue and finance even kings. The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.

They believed that Jeesus had conceived three children with Mary Magdalene, who moved to France after the crucifixion. Their progeny married into royalty; hence, there existed members of the French nobility who had divine blood in their veins. The Knights Templar eventually dedicated themselves to protecting the lives of these descendants of Jesus, the Merovingians.



Basically they started as killers for the church, they gained to much power and money, church in return got scared. Churched destoryed them, or did they?

wasn't Charlamaigne (sp?) said to be one of the descendants of Jesus ...
this is also how the grail was supposed to have ended up in England ... (through Mary Magdalene)